EVs: North American Charging Standard

[Dr Mordrid]

.Tax on kWh is difficult when people charge from home: you have to distinguish between the power used for living and the power used for driving (at least, here those would be differently taxed.

It's not difficult at all, the local utility will install a second meter for the home charge point(s). The power through that meter gets charged the kWh tax. You can pay both bills online together, or use auto-pay. Said utility will give you $500 toward the installation of the charge points.

As far as US EV adoption goes, the upcoming Q2 Tesla numbers may be impressive....

https://insideevs.com/news/672690/tesla-model-y-second-only-ford-f-150-best-selling-vehicle-us/

Tesla Model Y Second Only To Ford F-150 As Best-Selling Vehicle In US

The EV doubled US registrations in January-April 2023, becoming America's No. 1 passenger car and second best selling vehicle overall.

[paulw]

but how many people will install a second meter just for charging when they can plug it in to a normal power socket??

[Dr Mordrid]

but how many people will install a second meter just for charging when they can plug it in to a normal power socket??

The vast majority so they can use 240vac charging.

There are 2 levels of home charging in the US, and this makes up over 80% of charging. Usually in the overnight off-peak hours when the rates are much cheaper.

Level 1 is 120vac 20A. About 5 miles of range/hour, several days for a fill up. Mostly useful for plug-in hybrids.

Level 2 is 240vac 15-50A. About 35 miles of range/hour (depends on the vehicle on board charger). A full charge overnight.

Away from home, Level 3 is a fast DC charger like Tesla Supercharger (now the North American Charging Standard) or CCS1. Mostly for trips.

Our local utility will install a second meter and a Level 2 charger (up to 50 ft run) for about $1200, financing it for up to 10 years, and you can get a $500 rebate if you qualify (own an EV, and enroll in their time of day charging plan (encourages off-peak use)).

If, like many homes in this region, you already have a second meter and 240 vac circuit in the garage or out building (home businesses), all you need to do is buy the Level 2 charger and install it. Rebate still applies.

[VJ]

That is very specific for the US...
Not many homes in EU have a second meter, and we all are at 240V. Having a second meter will cost (installation plus annual fees), and even if it would be mandated to have a second meter for a vehicle charger, there is no way to check if people do not plug in their car to have it count on other meter. That is what I meant that it would be difficult to enforce. Is not like with diesel that you can add a colourant to the electricity..

Tariffs depend, can go from single price, day/night rate to peak/day/night. Regulations are being prepared to introduce an hourly electricity price market. Belgium already has introduced a capacity tariff: the size of your highest peak power in a 15 minute interval for the last 3 months is counted to contribute to your energy cost. The goal is to flatten people's usage, by making peaks more costly - they always count some minimum peak, so they try to get people to below this. It does make it less interesting to have a faster charger (ie. 22 kW or more) at home, as it will increase your energy cost due to the fact that you will have a high peak power.

[Umfriend]

So I get the issue with tires but if we can install second meters in homes, can't we have sensors in cars checking profile (and pressure). That way we not only have a taxable base that is harder to defraud/arbitrage, we also have an additional safetycheck. Surely, people have a financial icentive to delay replacing tires already.

[VJ]

Tire pressure monitoring sensors are already mandatory, but I've never heard of profile checking sensors... But I'm also arguing that installing a second meter at home is not straight forward, as there is no way of checking to which meter a car was plugged in (unless you have really smart meters, but that would mean upgrading the meters to identify the loads, which probably would bring some privacy issues).

But, in EU at least, you have the mandatory annual technical check. It would be a small thing to use that to read out the mileage and tax based on the number of km driven since the previous technical check. I believe mileages are already logged in some countries for the car passports (that prevent cheating with the mileage of second hand cars).

Alternatively, just make some roads toll roads at specific times: it not only would serve as tax, but also help with traffic congestion.

[Umfriend]

I agree on 2nd meters. Annual checks are great but I wasn't aware they were mandatory throughout EU and I think only after 3y first, no?
Toll roads in the Netherlands would be a logistical disaster.

[Dr Mordrid]

Tire pressure monitoring sensors are already mandatory, but I've never heard of profile checking sensors... But I'm also arguing that installing a second meter at home is not straight forward, as there is no way of checking to which meter a car was plugged in (unless you have really smart meters, but that would mean upgrading the meters to identify the loads, which probably would bring some privacy issues)

We already have Smart Meters and they can be read by a vehicle driving by your house. Having it tied to a Time of Day or a Fixed Fee monthly subscription, and only connected to the level 2 charger with an NACS cable and plug, pretty much precludes it being used to run a refrigerator etc.

In Most states we have a road tax paid x% per gallon of gasoline. Paying by kWh would be an easy switch over, and could also be applied to Level 3 chargers on the road.

Alternatively, just make some roads toll roads at specific times: it not only would serve as tax, but also help with traffic congestion.

In most of the US that would be a logistical nightmare because of our low population density and long distances. Besides that, it violates the whole idea of the Interstate Highway System. Where toll roads are used they are state or local roads or bridges.

[VJ]

We already have Smart Meters and they can be read by a vehicle driving by your house. Having it tied to a Time of Day or a Fixed Fee monthly subscription, and only connected to the level 2 charger with an NACS cable and plug, pretty much precludes it being used to run a refrigerator etc.

I'm thinking the other way around, as domestic use electricity will probably be lower taxed than EV charging: how to detect that people are plugging in EV in a normal socket? Overnight charging is fast enough through a normal wall plug.
We also have smart readers (that are read out via the grid), my point is that you would need meters that detect the type of load.

[Dr Mordrid]

I'm thinking the other way around, as domestic use electricity will probably be lower taxed than EV charging: how to detect that people are plugging in EV in a normal socket? Overnight charging is fast enough through a normal wall plug.
We also have smart readers (that are read out via the grid), my point is that you would need meters that detect the type of load.

Plugging the EV into a "normal" US wall plug would be 120v, which would take days to charge. 240v is for heavier equipment like clothes dryers, an electric hot water heater, or an electric range. Now we are adding EVs to that list.

Faster charging, such as via a 240v->NACS adapter cable, would mean another 240v circuit in the garage connected to the primary meter. The time of use* data on the primary meter showing 15-45 kWh at 2200-0600 would be a dead giveaway that the car was being charged on the wrong meter. From here excrement flows downhill.

* our smart meters include time of use so they can bill a surcharge during the peak use period of 1500-1900 Monday-Friday

[paulw]

I agree on 2nd meters. Annual checks are great but I wasn't aware they were mandatory throughout EU and I think only after 3y first, no?
Toll roads in the Netherlands would be a logistical disaster.

Toll roads here in New Zealand are now run by a government agency and using number plate recognition cameras at the toll booths. They tried local city manual tolling but it was an expensive nightmare.
We have smart meters for power and the gas companies are now installing smart gas meters as well but our gas meter is still manual reading.

[Umfriend]

Toll roads here in New Zealand are now run by a government agency and using number plate recognition cameras at the toll booths. They tried local city manual tolling but it was an expensive nightmare.
We have smart meters for power and the gas companies are now installing smart gas meters as well but our gas meter is still manual reading.

So we have smart meters in the Netherlands as well but they can't distinguish between load types (e.g. car battery charging vs oven or residential battery charging). I am at a 240V/75A connection (3x25A) and as if and when heating is electrified, standard connections will perhaps become larger even so, yes, charging off the side may be far easier here. They exist for gas as well but we're still on the manual one. They were supposed to be replaced but I suspect that given that we may choose to electrify all, that got postponed for now.

So toll booths, that is the issue. Where toll roads and booths make sense, there really isn't the space with us. Also, I *think* one always has toll-free alternatives like, e.g., in France? They're a nuisance to drive but there are certainly people that chose these to avoid toll. We have no way of providing a free alternative, again due to space. I think our freeways are high-up on the list by density of run-off/run-on ramps for instance.

[Dr Mordrid]

US and Canadian drivers will be getting a new option in 2026;

Rivian R2 SUV

Rivian already sells the R1T pickup and it's pretty nice, and successful. They have facilities in the US, Canada, and the UK. Both vehicles are built on the same skateboard chassis, they will support NACS in 2025, and they're fairly powerful.

https://carbuzz.com/news/rivian-r2-compact-suv-will-cost-40000-and-arrive-sooner-than-expected

Rivian R2 SUV.jpg

R1T

[VJ]

Plugging the EV into a "normal" US wall plug would be 120v, which would take days to charge. 240v is for heavier equipment like clothes dryers, an electric hot water heater, or an electric range. Now we are adding EVs to that list.

Faster charging, such as via a 240v->NACS adapter cable, would mean another 240v circuit in the garage connected to the primary meter. The time of use* data on the primary meter showing 15-45 kWh at 2200-0600 would be a dead giveaway that the car was being charged on the wrong meter. From here excrement flows downhill.

* our smart meters include time of use so they can bill a surcharge during the peak use period of 1500-1900 Monday-Friday

Do you have meters that show down to that timescale? Because if it is aggregated to e.g. a month or even a 3 month billing cycle, a higher use is an indicator but not enough to detect it.

Still, quite different systems with in the EU, where we all are only on 240v...

So toll booths, that is the issue. Where toll roads and booths make sense, there really isn't the space with us. Also, I *think* one always has toll-free alternatives like, e.g., in France? They're a nuisance to drive but there are certainly people that chose these to avoid toll. We have no way of providing a free alternative, again due to space. I think our freeways are high-up on the list by density of run-off/run-on ramps for instance.

New systems don't require toll booths. On section of the S8 in Poland has tolling via licence plate recognition. You buy a ticket at a fuel station for a time window and a section you want to drive (or have driven), and just drive on the highway. No need for toll booths, so space is not an issue.
The free alternative here exists, but it is literally hours of detour on local roads - so not really a reasonable alternative.

[Umfriend]

New systems don't require toll booths. On section of the S8 in Poland has tolling via license plate recognition. You buy a ticket at a fuel station for a time window and a section you want to drive (or have driven), and just drive on the highway. No need for toll booths, so space is not an issue.
The free alternative here exists, but it is literally hours of detour on local roads - so not really a reasonable alternative.

How does that work exactly? It seems like a hassle to me to have to transact at a fuel station every time you want to use a toll section but it may be simpler. License plate recognition seems nice. We considered that in the 90s and then the tech was deemed not be there. Also, how would this work for, say, foreign travelers? You can recognize the plate but how do you enforce recourse?

OT: We returned, had a great time in the US (California and Colorado). So that V70 which is considered a sizeable car here? It is tiny compared to what I drove in the US. Everything is tiny here in fact