Fascinating Documentary: "Who Killed the Electric Car?"

[Jerry Jones]

Jerry, there is some amount of disagreement in every field but it's not that hard to find the truth when science rules the day.

Mark,

How can you honestly write a statement like this?

I mean -- wow.

Mark, I have a LIFETIME of experience covering topics involving engineers, biologists, physicians, etc.

They not only ARGUE over what constitutes "truth" -- they really bash each other in a never-ending game that usually revolves around competition to get the most grant funding or competition to be considered the "expert" in the field or they may be used as "hired guns" by various private interests.

Look at court cases.

I've covered literally dozens of trials.

The juries are exposed to a huge number of so-called "experts" with contrasting viewpoints.

The defense attorneys present their expert witnesses.

The prosecuting attorneys present their expert witnesses.

In both cases, they claim to use SCIENCE to support their expert opinions, which contradict each other.

Here in the Pacific Northwest, we have many scientists who argue that our salmon runs are destroyed primarily due to the presence of human-engineered dams.

Yet, those who oppose tearing the dams down have their own scientists who argue that the salmon runs have been degraded by other causes.

And they fight each other.

And nothing gets done.

And the salmon are now almost gone.

Before we even get to the point you made about the individual from MIT, let's agree that scientists often don't agree.

In fact, they often flatly contradict each other.

Can we at least agree on that point?

Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net

[Jerry Jones]

As for the GM EV1 electric car. GM spent approximately $1 million per car into the program and was unwilling to put more money into a program that appeared to have little chance for sucess. But they did put A LOT of money behind it and did try to make it work. The EV1 had a range of less than 100 miles.

Mark,

Everything you've written here (except for the RANGE of the EV1) is flatly CONTRADICTED by key people in the documentary, including Ph.D. scientists with credentials you earlier seemed to revere.

Here's an NPR (National Public Radio) transcript of an interview with a U.S. Postal Service environmental compliance manager... a fellow named Ray Levinson:

http://tinyurl.com/hw83f

Q: What made you lease your Ford Ranger EV in the first place?

I had been aware of various alternate fuel vehicles the USPS has used to deliver mail over the years: electric, compressed natural gas, ethanol, etc. We've tried them all.... While attending various Clean Cities expos in the 1990s, I got to drive the General Motors EV1, Toyota RAV4 EV, Honda EV+, Chrysler EPIC minivan and many others. I became more interested in EVs as a personal vehicle when a Toyota RAV4 EV passed me on the San Diego Freeway at about 80 mph, with large "EV" decals on its side!

It was interesting to note that few, if any, of the manufacturers actually advertised the fact that these EVs were available when they had them, and then claimed nobody wanted them. You really had to know where to find them in order to get one. The few EVs built became available mainly to fleets, but I used my knowledge of the existence of these vehicles to track one down for my own use.

Q: What's involved with recharging the car?

I received a residential charging station when I obtained the vehicle, which had to be wired to my house, for about a couple hundred dollars. The beauty is you get to charge the EV overnight, when electric rates are cheapest. I have been paying about a nickel per kilowatt hour for six years, and it takes about 25 kilowatt hours to get a full charge. That is $1.25 to go 50 miles, or about $6.25 to go 250 miles, about the same as a $50 tankful of gas for everyone else.

Q: You say that when you leased your EV in 2000, it was only for a three-year term. But you're in your sixth year of driving the car. Why?

Because so few were built, nobody really new how EVs would work over time. A replacement battery pack could cost as much as $20,000, as they were all handmade. So the manufacturers only leased them, and only for three years. Everyone was surprised when they kept going and going and going. My Ranger has more advanced Nickel-Metal Hydride (NiMH) batteries, [which are] more expensive and longer lasting than the lead-acid batteries used in earlier EVs. The original range for a full charge when I got my EV was about 60 miles, and then you needed about a five-hour charge. Other, more advanced EVs like the EV1 or Toyota RAV4 EV got more than 100 miles to a charge. After six years and 30,000 miles, my range has deteriorated to about 45 miles, which is still plenty for my daily routine. I refused to give the car up when the lease was terminated and ended up buying it from Ford for $1!

Q: What do you love about driving an electric car?

Everything. It is quiet, pollution free, cheap to operate, absolutely no maintenance or smog checks. No oil changes or air/oil filter changes, either. The only maintenance required over 30,000 miles is to rotate the tires! I get tax breaks, and do not have to pay gas or road taxes when I recharge my batteries. Also, in California, you get to use the car pool lanes and cross the toll bridges for free during rush hour. EVs are the perfect commuter car, if you have a reasonable distance to travel. Remember, most of the pollution from internal combustion engines comes from the morning "cold starts" and stop-and-go traffic. This is where EVs perform best, as the motor is not running at every stop, just like an electric drill. You just use the energy when you need it; there is no idling for an electric vehicle.

Q: What are some not-so-great things about EVs, or things that would take some getting used to?

Of course, the range and time to recharge are the biggest limits. It is sort of like driving with a quarter tank of gas, and all the gas stations are closed, so you'd better know your limits. But it is perfect as a second car or commuter vehicle. The EV industry was working on longer-range batteries and quicker chargers when the whole technology was dumped. Recall how big cell phone and laptop batteries were just six years ago? Had proper research and development continued on EVs, who knows what we may have had today?

Q: When your EV does finally kick, what will you do next?

Some of my EV-driver friends have staged "funerals" for their EVs when they were forced to turn them in because their short-term leases expired or were terminated by the car makers. Others have actually bought replacement batteries from overseas and have hand-built replacement packs, which requires a lot more knowledge, skill and courage than I have to accomplish. Who knows, with the right TLC maybe my truck will last for another 10 years? The motors are estimated to last 250,000 miles.

I would like to say that Ford has been great about continuing to support my truck, when I have brought it in for the occasional check-up. They (and the other manufacturers) made some really great EVs when they were forced to, and had a lot of really talented engineers and designers on their payrolls. It is so hard to accept the manufacturers' (and oil companies') assertion that we can't make improvements on these wonderful vehicles.

_____________


Now, let's talk about the EV1.

If you watch the actual ADVERTISING used by GM to promote those specific cars, you got the impression you were watching a product designed for a so-called "nuclear winter."

Now I never saw these ads in the 90s.

In fact, I was a reporter in the 80s and the 90s and THERE WAS NO STORY EVER DONE HERE IN BOISE about EV1s and not because I wasn't interested in the topic.

It was because I never got even a simple press release from GM or any of GM's local dealers.

The documentary confirms what I have long suspected.

Sure, GM claims to have spent "billions."

But when you ask GM to produce the paperwork confirming just how that money was spent... well... you begin to run into more than just a few inconsistencies.

Even GM CEO Rick Wagoner confesses his worst decision was "axing the EV1 electric-car program and not putting the right resources into hybrids." (Motor Trend, June 2006)

If the CEO of GM is making a statement like that, then I'm inclined to believe he regrets the decision that he made.

And his own admission seems to contradict your own claim.

Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net

[Jerry Jones]

Given the state of the US car market at the time GM felt other projects with more immediate results was the better option.

Not according to GM's own CEO, Rick Wagoner.

In the June 2006 issue of Motor Trend magazine, Wagoner admits his biggest mistake was "axing the EV1 electric-car program and not putting the right resources into hybrids."

How can one rationalize what GM did when GM's own CEO now admits it was a MISTAKE?

Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net

[Jerry Jones]

Why not sell them to the leaseholders? Liability. The lawyers do rule after all.

Not FORD's lawyers, apparently:

Ray Levinson of the U.S. Postal Service leased a FORD Ranger EV.

According to Levinson's interview with NPR (National Public Radio) here...

http://tinyurl.com/hw83f

"I refused to give the car up when the lease was terminated and ended up buying it from Ford for $1!"

So we have a situation where FORD's lawyers obviously felt it was OK to let a customer keep his EV... for only a dollar!!

Here's the full question/answer with Levinson.

Driving Electric: What's It Like?

Ray Levinson is an environmental compliance manager for the U.S. Postal Service in California and Hawaii and has been driving a Ford Ranger electric vehicle (EV) for six years. The self-labeled "EVangelist" describes the ups and downs of gasoline-free driving.

Q: What made you lease your Ford Ranger EV in the first place?

I had been aware of various alternate fuel vehicles the USPS has used to deliver mail over the years: electric, compressed natural gas, ethanol, etc. We've tried them all.... While attending various Clean Cities expos in the 1990s, I got to drive the General Motors EV1, Toyota RAV4 EV, Honda EV+, Chrysler EPIC minivan and many others. I became more interested in EVs as a personal vehicle when a Toyota RAV4 EV passed me on the San Diego Freeway at about 80 mph, with large "EV" decals on its side!

It was interesting to note that few, if any, of the manufacturers actually advertised the fact that these EVs were available when they had them, and then claimed nobody wanted them. You really had to know where to find them in order to get one. The few EVs built became available mainly to fleets, but I used my knowledge of the existence of these vehicles to track one down for my own use.

Q: What's involved with recharging the car?

I received a residential charging station when I obtained the vehicle, which had to be wired to my house, for about a couple hundred dollars. The beauty is you get to charge the EV overnight, when electric rates are cheapest. I have been paying about a nickel per kilowatt hour for six years, and it takes about 25 kilowatt hours to get a full charge. That is $1.25 to go 50 miles, or about $6.25 to go 250 miles, about the same as a $50 tankful of gas for everyone else.

Q: You say that when you leased your EV in 2000, it was only for a three-year term. But you're in your sixth year of driving the car. Why?

Because so few were built, nobody really new how EVs would work over time. A replacement battery pack could cost as much as $20,000, as they were all handmade. So the manufacturers only leased them, and only for three years. Everyone was surprised when they kept going and going and going. My Ranger has more advanced Nickel-Metal Hydride (NiMH) batteries, [which are] more expensive and longer lasting than the lead-acid batteries used in earlier EVs. The original range for a full charge when I got my EV was about 60 miles, and then you needed about a five-hour charge. Other, more advanced EVs like the EV1 or Toyota RAV4 EV got more than 100 miles to a charge. After six years and 30,000 miles, my range has deteriorated to about 45 miles, which is still plenty for my daily routine. I refused to give the car up when the lease was terminated and ended up buying it from Ford for $1!

Q: What do you love about driving an electric car?

Everything. It is quiet, pollution free, cheap to operate, absolutely no maintenance or smog checks. No oil changes or air/oil filter changes, either. The only maintenance required over 30,000 miles is to rotate the tires! I get tax breaks, and do not have to pay gas or road taxes when I recharge my batteries. Also, in California, you get to use the car pool lanes and cross the toll bridges for free during rush hour. EVs are the perfect commuter car, if you have a reasonable distance to travel. Remember, most of the pollution from internal combustion engines comes from the morning "cold starts" and stop-and-go traffic. This is where EVs perform best, as the motor is not running at every stop, just like an electric drill. You just use the energy when you need it; there is no idling for an electric vehicle.

Q: What are some not-so-great things about EVs, or things that would take some getting used to?

Of course, the range and time to recharge are the biggest limits. It is sort of like driving with a quarter tank of gas, and all the gas stations are closed, so you'd better know your limits. But it is perfect as a second car or commuter vehicle. The EV industry was working on longer-range batteries and quicker chargers when the whole technology was dumped. Recall how big cell phone and laptop batteries were just six years ago? Had proper research and development continued on EVs, who knows what we may have had today?

Q: When your EV does finally kick, what will you do next?

Some of my EV-driver friends have staged "funerals" for their EVs when they were forced to turn them in because their short-term leases expired or were terminated by the car makers. Others have actually bought replacement batteries from overseas and have hand-built replacement packs, which requires a lot more knowledge, skill and courage than I have to accomplish. Who knows, with the right TLC maybe my truck will last for another 10 years? The motors are estimated to last 250,000 miles.

I would like to say that Ford has been great about continuing to support my truck, when I have brought it in for the occasional check-up. They (and the other manufacturers) made some really great EVs when they were forced to, and had a lot of really talented engineers and designers on their payrolls. It is so hard to accept the manufacturers' (and oil companies') assertion that we can't make improvements on these wonderful vehicles.

_______

Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net

[TransformX]

Question: How much pollution does Lithium battery production costs?
I know that the semiconductor industry (places with clean rooms) pollutes extreme amounts of water, I don't suppose Lithium batteries are produced without polluting the area as well.

About wind power, talk to those preserving nature. In many many cases, wind power = dead birds.

[Brian Ellis]

OK, I wrote the following in the other forum I quoted earlier about the possibility of EVs becoming mainstream in, say, 15 years or so:

I try to be more pragmatic. The average family in most countries requires a car that can seat 4-6 persons, even if only a single person is in it for most of the time. It is far too expensive to have a different car to suit all occasions, so a compromise is necessary. The ultra-economic concept car is therefore not a practical compromise. The family car in W. Europe is driven, on average, 48 km/day over an average engine-running time of 98 minutes with an average of 28 kW generated during this time, or about 45 kWh of energy required.

Let us imagine that an EV is twice as efficient, so "burning" 22 kWh/day, even with aircon, headlights, and all the other electric accessories,, which has to be replaced. There are approximately 200 million cars in W Europe so, if every owner - in 20 years from now - has an electric car and he gets home from work at 6.30 pm and plugs in his car for a slow trickle charge taking, say, 4 hours, that means that from 6.30 - 10.30 there will be a new peak consumption of 200x106 x 22/4 or 1,100 GW, on top of the base consumption of dinner being cooked, TV being switched on, aircon still being on and so on.

This extra demand is roughly twice the total current electricity supply today of the whole of W. Europe (http://www.oxfordenergy.org/pdfs/jelsample.pdf) and would require about 700 EPR nuke stations to supply. OK, this may be a worst-case scenario, but I can't see anything better than 50% of this being able to supply the necessary energy, even by staggering the charging hours and I assumed the batteries and their chargers to be 100% efficient, which they aren't!

On a pragmatic scale, I don't think that we are anywhere near being able to cope with EVs as mainstream transport, in its modern form, without at least doubling power and grid infrastructure.

Note that I guestimated 22 kWh/charge, not 25 kWh as your article cited but it's near enough. OK, I cited the European situation. The US is different: its grid is less stable than Europe's and there is less reserve capacity, so you would need more infrastructure to support EVs.

Now to get back to pollution, US coal-fired power stations emit into the air we breathe, on an average, for every 100 MWh produced, 718.6 lbs of SOx, 313.1 lbs of NOx, 185,566.50 lbs of CO2 and 3.93 lbs of mercury. For ease of calculation, let's say 25 kWh/car/day, so 40 cars require 1 MWh. If they became semi-mainstream with 100 million cars, multiply these figures by25,000 for the daily pollution emissions. Compare these figures with 100 million Prius averaging 45 miles/day and you will see who wins, handsomely. In particular, there is practically no mercury in refined petrol (gasoline), because it would kill the catalytic converter in a few minutes and the sulfur levels are extremely low. The cat pot would reduce the NOx levels to about ¼.

If the EV became really mainstream, with 200,000,000 cars, with these figures, you would require an EXTRA annual production of between 2,000 and 3,000 TWh, counting for grid losses. Current (no pun intended) electricity production is 3,900 TWh. Unfortunately, this does not give the whole story, as there is also a question of capacity. When the guy in Seattle gets home from work at, say, 1900 h and plugs in his car to charge it, there are already the great majority of the nation's cars being charged, on top of the evening peak when wifey is cooking the dinner, 3 TVs are on, 3 aircons are on, the chillers in all the buildings are working at full capacity to evacuate the accumulated heat of the day, the 2- and 3-shift factories are still working. etc., so this new peak demand will require more than the TWh would imply. To avoid black-outs, the whole infrastructure would need to be more than doubled. This is why I say that the EV would require many hundreds of new nuclear power stations, complemented by thousands of wind farms.

[TransformX]

Bleh, make those pesky EV even more expensive and fit them with solar panels. At least during the sunny seasons, park them outside so they recharge while you're at work.

[Gurm]

If you believe GM -- and I don't.

I gave GM a chance.

I bought the notorious Pontiac Fiero -- brand new -- in 1987.

Within two years, the dealer -- with a grave look on his face -- gave me the bad news.

"Your Pontiac Fiero -- only two years old -- needs an engine replacement."

I was in shock.

Incredulous, I asked the dealer "How could this possibly happen?"

"I've changed the oil every month for the past two years," I pointed out.

"I've never raced the engine," I said.

He couldn't explain it.

But then I read all of the news reports about the engine fires and the maintenance nightmares by other owners of GM's Pontiac Fiero.

Such a shame.

I really loved the outer appearance of the car.

The fact GM is going broke tells me the management of that company has failed to adapt to change.

1. My first car was a British car... disaster.

2. My second car was an American car... disaster.

3. My third car was a German car... disaster.

4. My current car is a Japanese car... NO PROBLEMS!!!

I gave all of the others a chance and they screwed me.

My current car has been SUCH AN AMAZING CONTRAST.

Virtually, no maintenance costs.

Simple.

It's a little Suzuki with great fuel economy.

That's been my personal experience.

If you watch the documentary, you'll learn that GM's EV marketing manager -- himself -- tells the interviewer that he was "cannibalized" by the marketing managers of the gasoline product lines.



Jerry Jones
http://www.jonesgroup.net

If you didn't have luck with German cars, you did something horribly wrong. My BMW was the best car I, or anyone I know, has ever owned. Period. Full stop.

[Hulk]

Jerry,

Of course there is disagreement but there is much MORE agreement.

Is DNA used in court cases every day? Yes.

Do all scientists believe in Newton's Laws, Einstein's theory of Relativity, Maxwell's Equations? Of course.

The very fact that you are typing on that computer of yours show tremendious concensus among scientists and engineers.

Don't twist my words. There is much more agreement than disagreement. The scientific community uses discussion to move forward, they challenge each other, but in the end science moves ahead and the truth is discovered. That is the basis of real science. You can (and usually do) find the negative in everything and then search out all antecdotal evidence to support your claims.

That movie is propaganda. Don't be sucked in by the "great conspiracy theory."

The creators had an agenda and there will always be a few people fooled by these things, don't be one of them.

Like I said an $80 million loss was enough for GM when they saw nothing good coming from it.

Please please please just remember GM is trying to make money. If there was reasonable profit there they would have stayed with it.



- Mark

[Brian Ellis]

Now to get back to pollution, US coal-fired power stations emit into the air we breathe, on an average, for every MWh produced, 718.6 lbs of SOx, 313.1 lbs of NOx, 185,566.50 lbs of CO2 and 3.93 lbs of mercury.

I'm surprised no one picked me up on these figures! They are for every 100 MWh. I admit I was surprised at the nearly 4 lbs of mercury/MWh.

I'll correct the figures in the original by Edit!

Sorry!

BTW, the annual emissions of mercury from all US coal-fired power stations total 5050 tons. And mercury is a helluva sight more toxic than lead!

[Jerry Jones]

Jerry,

Of course there is disagreement but there is much MORE agreement.

Is DNA used in court cases every day? Yes.

Do all scientists believe in Newton's Laws, Einstein's theory of Relativity, Maxwell's Equations?

Mark,

The scientific community has been doing what during the past week?

Debating whether or not Pluto is or is not a "planet."

And that's a relatively SIMPLE question, isn't it?

In addition, you mentioned Newton, Einstein, Maxwell.

Remember when the scientists of old ARGUED about whether the Earth was or was not "flat?"

Today they argue about global warming.

Today they argue about salmon recovery.

Today they argue about whether the medicines we throw away as consumers might make their way into the natural environment and lead to the evolution of "super bugs."

You mentioned your reluctance to believe in so-called "conspiracy theories."

Mark, conspiracy theories often turn out to be TRUE -- especially where CORPORATE GREED is concerned.

Example: TOBACCO CORPORATIONS.

Does that ring a bell?

TOBACCO CORPORATIONS used SCIENTISTS WITH CREDENTIALS -- HIRED GUNS -- to delay and delay and delay and cloud the truth regarding the health impacts of cigarettes.

FAST FOOD CORPORATIONS have used SCIENTISTS WITH CREDENTIALS -- HIRED GUNS -- to suggest the meals they serve in their restaurants really have nothing to do with America's disgusting obesity crisis.

Check out this belly:

http://tinyurl.com/mgjsm

I would suggest you watch the documentary "The Corporation."

Here:

http://tinyurl.com/96qa2

You'll be amazed to learn how large corporations employ psychologists to craft advertising messages that hook children -- yes children -- to become consumers at age 5 and younger.

You'll see how large corporations manipulate the news in this country.

You'll see how large corporations engage in amazingly disgusting behavior.

It's not about "right" or "left."

It's about stupid G-R-E-E-D, Mark.

I'm sorry that you can't seem to accept this as a reality.

But I do.

And this is where we seem to disagree.

Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net

[Jerry Jones]

Like I said an $80 million loss was enough for GM when they saw nothing good coming from it.Please please please just remember GM is trying to make mo1 ney. If there was reasonable profit there they would have stayed with it.- Mark

Mark,

Why do you simply DISMISS the quote from GM's CEO Rick Wagoner?

The fact that you DISMISS that quote tells me something about whether your mind is "open" or "closed."

You see, Mark, the CEO of General Motors, Rick Wagoner has ADMITTED to Motor Trend magazine that axing the EV1 was his worst decision.

Motor Trend: June 2006 issue

How do you reconcile Wagoner's statement?



Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net

[Tjalfe]

You see, Mark, the former CEO of General Motors, Rick Wagoner has ADMITTED to Motor Trend magazine that axing the EV1 was his worst decision.

http://www.jonesgroup.net

according to wikipedia, the quote is

According to the interview with Rick Wagoner in the June 2006 issue of Motor Trend magazine, the cancellation has been the worst decision of his tenure from an image standpoint

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_EV1

just to be picky

[Jerry Jones]

according to wikipedia, the quote is

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_EV1

just to be picky

Well, if you read the entire quote, you learn that the EV1 did not threaten GM's financial position at all, which is contrary to Mark's contention that the EV1 was a "losing proposition."

That -- I submit -- is the nail in the coffin of Mark's casual dismissal of the EV1's market potential.

The fact is that General Motors management did not anticipate CHANGE.

What changed?

1. America went to war in Iraq;

2. Gas prices soared to THREE DOLLARS a gallon and higher -- A FACT -- a fact so critically important that it's now obvious that the obsolete, pure internal combustion SUVs are relics of the past and are dramatically losing traction in the marketplace and GM never saw it coming.

Many of America's formerly great corporations have withered because they failed to anticipate CHANGE.

RCA, for example.

RCA was a giant in the electronics industry -- arguably the world leader.

What happened?

Management failed to anticipate CHANGE.

We live in what some call the "Quantum Age" -- where CHANGE is so rapid that it's literally creating new paradigms and business models.

The Japanese firms -- Sony, Panasonic -- are today's electronics leaders, but many are saying that Sony is losing its edge.

I predict that plug-in hybrids will be the next "hot" automobile technology!

READ ABOUT NEW PLUG-IN HYBRIDS HERE:

http://tinyurl.com/k2drd

http://tinyurl.com/z3mez

http://tinyurl.com/jvfjn

Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net

[Jerry Jones]

That movie is propaganda.

Well, this reveals your own unwillingness to have an "open" mind on the subject, Mark.

But let's assume your claim isn't an error.

Let's assume that you are correct and the movie is propaganda as you claim.

Who -- then -- are the "mysterious conspirators" behind this "propaganda?"

POPULAR MECHANICS recently *ran the numbers comparing all types of alternative fuel vehicles.

*LINK: http://tinyurl.com/hzhov

"A strong appeal of the electric car--and of a hybrid when it's running on electricity--is that it produces no tailpipe emissions. Even when emissions created by power plants are factored in, electric vehicles emit less than 10 percent of the pollution of an internal-combustion car."

Who do you accuse?

1. hippies?

2. liberals?

3. environmentalists?

4. Hollywood actors?

5. All of the above?

Who do you think are the bad guys behind this film, Mark?

Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net