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  • No lunar base? ASTEROIDS!

    From AviationWeek.com....

    Link....

    Space Leaders Work To Replace Lunar Base With Manned Asteroid Missions

    Jan 18, 2008

    By Craig Covault


    Some of the most influential leaders of the space community are quietly working to offer the next U.S. president an alternative to President Bush's "vision for space exploration"--one that would delete a lunar base and move instead toward manned missions to asteroids along with a renewed emphasis on Earth environmental spacecraft.

    Top U.S. planetary scientists, several astronauts and former NASA division directors will meet privately at Stanford University on Feb. 12-13 to define these sweeping changes to the NASA/Bush administration Vision for Space Exploration (VSE).

    Abandoning the Bush lunar base concept in favor of manned asteroid landings could also lead to much earlier manned flights to Mars orbit, where astronauts could land on the moons Phobos or Deimos.


    Their goals for a new array of missions also include sending astronauts to Lagrangian points, 1 million mi. from Earth, where the Earth's and Sun's gravity cancel each other out and spacecraft such as replacements for the Hubble Space Telescope could be parked and serviced much like Hubble.

    The "alternate vision" the group plans to offer would urge far greater private-sector incentives to make ambitious human spaceflight plans a reality.

    There would also be some different "winners and losers" compared with the Bush vision. If the lunar base is deleted, the Kennedy Space Center could lose additional personnel because there would be fewer Ares V launches and no lunar base infrastructure work that had been assigned to KSC. On the other hand, the Goddard Space Flight Center and National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration near Washington, along with the Jet Propulsion Laboratory (JPL) in California, would gain with the increased space environmental-monitoring goal.

    Numerous planetary managers told Aviation Week & Space Technology they now fear a manned Moon base and even shorter sorties to the Moon will bog down the space program for decades and inhibit, rather than facilitate, manned Mars operations--the ultimate goal of both the Bush and alternative visions. The first lunar sortie would be flown by about 2020 under the Bush plan.

    If alternative-vision planners have their way, the mission could instead be flown to an asteroid in about 2025.

    Participants in the upcoming meeting contend there's little public enthusiasm for a return to the Moon, especially among youth, and that the Bush administration has laid out grandiose plans but has done little to provide the funding to realize them on a reasonable timescale.

    Planners say the Bush plan is beginning to crumble, with only companies that have won major funding still enthusiastic about the existing plan.

    "It's becoming painfully obvious that the Moon is not a stepping-stone for manned Mars operations but is instead a stumbling block," says Robert Farquhar, a veteran of planning and operating planetary and deep-space missions.

    The prospect of challenging new manned missions to asteroids is drawing far more excitement among young people than a "return" (as in going backward) to the Moon, says Lou Friedman, who heads The Planetary Society, the country's largest space interest group.


    The society is co-hosting the invitation-only VSE replanning session with Stanford. A lot of people going to the meeting believe "the Moon is so yesterday," says Friedman.

    "It just does not feel right. And there's growing belief that, at high cost, it offers minimal engineering benefit for later manned Mars operations."

    Under the alternative VSE, even smaller, individual lunar sorties would be reduced, or perhaps deleted entirely, says Noel W. Hinners, who had extensive Apollo lunar science and system responsibility at Bell Laboratories before heading all of NASA's science program development. He also led Lockheed Martin Spaceflight System.
    >
    Dr. Mordrid
    ----------------------------
    An elephant is a mouse built to government specifications.

    I carry a gun because I can't throw a rock 1,250 fps

  • #2
    Manned missions to the moon and Mars with the ultimate goal of setting up a manned station/base is more important than landing on an asteroid.

    That and the moon is rich in He3, which is an ideal fuel for a fusion reactor.

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    • #3
      But asteroid missions are a quicker route to interplanetary flight, meaning Mars. They may also be useful in developing techniques to change their path.
      Dr. Mordrid
      ----------------------------
      An elephant is a mouse built to government specifications.

      I carry a gun because I can't throw a rock 1,250 fps

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by rylan View Post
        That and the moon is rich in He3, which is an ideal fuel for a fusion reactor.
        That would mean more, if anyone could get controlled fusion to work!

        Kevin

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        • #5
          Originally posted by KRSESQ View Post
          That would mean more, if anyone could get controlled fusion to work!

          Kevin
          Bah, minor details!

          Comment


          • #6
            /brian mode on: *

            Apart from the possibility of diverting an asteroid, what benefit to mankind would such missions bring? Interplanetray travel is never going to be a realistic proposition for more than the tiniest handful of people. Its not like its going to give us all somewhere to go once we've done wrecking this planet. Why bother?

            Maybe putting effort into transport that is orders-of-magnitude faster than current rockets would make sense, but small increments are never going to make the difference required to make useful space transport a reality.

            Perhaps the US administration should be spending those billions looking after its own people to solve real societal problems.

            /brian mode off.

            * = devil's advocate
            FT.

            Comment


            • #7
              I'll be happy when we start building a space dock, and building real interplanetary manned vehicles...
              PC-1 Fractal Design Arc Mini R2, 3800X, Asus B450M-PRO mATX, 2x8GB B-die@3800C16, AMD Vega64, Seasonic 850W Gold, Black Ice Nemesis/Laing DDC/EKWB 240 Loop (VRM>CPU>GPU), Noctua Fans.
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              • #8
                Asteroids could be used as building materials and fuel for spacecraft and deep space habs. There has already been a lot of work on solar smelting of their iron and other metals, the use of carbonaceous asteroids for making hydrocarbons and manufacturing techniques.
                Dr. Mordrid
                ----------------------------
                An elephant is a mouse built to government specifications.

                I carry a gun because I can't throw a rock 1,250 fps

                Comment


                • #9
                  Sure, but that still just lets us plod around. What's the point without REAL speed? I mean it takes decades to reach some of the planets in our solar system, none of which are habitable. WARP SPEEDS or its pointless. Employ a few thousand extra nurses, teachers and cops instead.
                  FT.

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                  • #10
                    Two words: VASIMR drive

                    VASIMR = Variable Specific Impulse Magnetoplasma Rocket

                    Mars trip using conventional means: 1 year, minimum

                    Mars trip using VASIMR: 2-4 months....in some mission plans less than that. Since VASIMR can run continuously for months or even years the trip would consist of accelerating half way there then turning the ship about to decelerate the other half of the trip. Since VASIMR's can be clustered redundancy is not only possible but easily done.

                    Just last summer a VX-100 VASIMR ran cntinuously for over 4 hours. VX-200 will soon be testing in a huge new vacuum chamber, required because of the size of its plume.

                    Fuel: H2 or most any other easily ionized gas
                    Specific impulse: 3,000 to 30,000 seconds
                    Typical rocket: 30-400 seconds
                    Exhaust velocity: 30 to 300 km/s
                    Power: small ones solar; large ones a space nuclear reactor (working designs already exist)

                    Get the picture?

                    VASIMR is being developed privately by former astronaut Franklin Chang-Diaz under a contract with NASA (just signed in Dec. '07) and with financial support by a European company. VF-200 (flight version) is due to fly a test mission in ~2 years. From there it's "up is GO"
                    Last edited by Dr Mordrid; 20 January 2008, 19:56.
                    Dr. Mordrid
                    ----------------------------
                    An elephant is a mouse built to government specifications.

                    I carry a gun because I can't throw a rock 1,250 fps

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Is this for space travel only, or also for lifting off the planet ?
                      PC-1 Fractal Design Arc Mini R2, 3800X, Asus B450M-PRO mATX, 2x8GB B-die@3800C16, AMD Vega64, Seasonic 850W Gold, Black Ice Nemesis/Laing DDC/EKWB 240 Loop (VRM>CPU>GPU), Noctua Fans.
                      Nas : i3/itx/2x4GB/8x4TB BTRFS/Raid6 (7 + Hotspare) Xpenology
                      +++ : FSP Nano 800VA (Pi's+switch) + 1600VA (PC-1+Nas)

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                      • #12
                        It won't work in an atmosphere...
                        FT.

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                        • #13
                          Doc, I personally find VASIMR to be awesome.

                          But the point here is that other than Mars, and maybe Venus (to which there is little point traveling), the rest of the solar system and galaxy and universe remain pretty off-limits to us without some way to effectively... well, to be crude... make the speed of light our bitch.

                          We're not talking about "oh let's go 10x faster". That's COOL, and I personally think that Mars is a great destination with lots of scientific and real value. But to really reach out to the rest of the universe, we need to be able to go ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE faster. And that remains out of our reach until the theoretical physicists make a few more breakthroughs.
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                          • #14
                            I always wondered.. If you're flying at more or less the speed of light and then shoot a gun in your direction of travel, what's going to happen?
                            Also, same scenario and I turn on a flashlight...
                            "For every action, there is an equal and opposite criticism."

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by TransformX View Post
                              I always wondered.. If you're flying at more or less the speed of light and then shoot a gun in your direction of travel, what's going to happen?
                              Also, same scenario and I turn on a flashlight...

                              The issue is that in order to travel at the speed of light something "different" would need to happen.

                              In other words your question is moot because traveling at the speed of light is not possible using conventional thrust.

                              In order for us to achieve near-light, light, or faster-than-light speeds we would have to develop a technique for "changing the rules". Yes, in sci-fi parlance this is "warp drive" or "hyperspace" or "folding space" or any of a number of flights of fancy. I don't know what form such a technique would take, nor do I pretend to. But given that you won't just be cruising along at 'c'... the question of whether a bullet fired is 'c'+60mph is moot.
                              The Internet - where men are men, women are men, and teenage girls are FBI agents!

                              I'm the least you could do
                              If only life were as easy as you
                              I'm the least you could do, oh yeah
                              If only life were as easy as you
                              I would still get screwed

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