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  • Pure EV's "not viable"

    The French govt. commissioned the report then spiked it when it came to uncomfortable conclusions; pure EV's aren't the future panacea once thought. Hybrids, E-REV's like the Volt and advanced IC's got good words.

    Link....

    Politically inconvenient truth about electric cars

    President Nicolas Sarkozy would dearly like to end France’s rotating presidency of the European Union on a high note by brokering this week a deal on a grand European response to global warming and energy efficiency. The ultimate plan is to cut carbon dioxide emissions by 20 per cent with member states at the same time drawing their future energy needs from clean renewable sources by the same percentage amount. Under the circumstances, it is no surprise that the automobile industry has found itself at the heart of the climate change debate.

    Indeed, Mr Sarkozy’s own government commissioned months ago one of France’s leading energy experts – Jean Syrota, the former French energy industry regulator – to draw up a report to analyse all the options for building cleaner and more efficient mass-market cars by 2030. The 129-page report was completed in September to coincide with the Paris motor show. But the government has continued to sit on it and seems reluctant to ever publish it.

    Yet all those who have managed to glimpse at the document agree that it makes interesting reading. It concludes that there is not much future in the much vaunted developed of all electric-powered cars. Instead, it suggests that the traditional combustion engine powered by petrol, diesel, ethanol or new biofuels still offers the most realistic prospect of developing cleaner vehicles. Carbon emissions and fuel consumption could be cut by 30-40 per cent simply by improving the performance and efficiency of traditional engines and limiting the top speed to about 170km/hr. Even that is well above the average top speed restriction in Europe, with the notable exception of Germany. New so-called “stop and start” mechanisms can produce further 10 per cent reductions that can rise to 25-30 per cent in cities. Enhancements in car electronics as well as the development of more energy efficient tyres, such as Michelin’s new “energy saver” technology, are also expected to help reduce consumption and pollution.

    Overall, the Syrota report says that adapting and improving conventional engines could enhance their efficiency by an average of 50 per cent. It also argues that new-generation hybrid cars combining conventional engines with electric propulsion could provide an interesting future alternative.

    By combining electric batteries with conventional fuel-driven engines, cars could run on clean electricity for short urban trips while switching over to fuel on motorways. This would resolve one of the biggest problems facing all electric cars – the need to install costly battery recharging infrastructures.


    The report warns that the overall cost of an all-electric car remains unviable at around double that of a conventional vehicle. Battery technology is still unsatisfactory, severely limiting performance both in terms of range and speed. The electricity supply for these batteries would continue to come from mostly fossil sources.

    The misgivings over the future of the electric car may explain why the French government appears to have spiked the report. It probably considers it politically incorrect, especially when some of Mr Sarkozy’s big business chums such as Vincent Bolloré and Serge Dassault are developing either electric cars and lobbying hard. Renault too has struck a deal with Israel to jointly develop a mass-market electric vehicle. To paraphrase Al Gore’s documentary on climate change, Paris may feel it is not the best of times to publicise the inconvenient truth about electric cars.
    Last edited by Dr Mordrid; 14 December 2008, 09:14.
    Dr. Mordrid
    ----------------------------
    An elephant is a mouse built to government specifications.

    I carry a gun because I can't throw a rock 1,250 fps

  • #2
    Interesting news item. Not having seen the document, I can't comment very well, but I tend to agree, on the whole, judging from the report which, of course, is probably distorted.

    What is ultra interesting is that French electricity is 95% non-fossil (nuclear and hydro), yet it says that the EV does not stop carbon emissions. I read this as meaning my "melting pot" statement in a recent thread here.

    Mind you, there are some idiocies stated in the report and I don't know whether they are translated correctly from the document. For example, the "stop-start" technique (which I have on my car) will never save 10% of fuel overall or 25-30% in cities. It never cuts the engine on highways, a few seconds per hour on ordinary roads (at stop signs). In urban traffic, it cuts the engine most at lights. Even on roads with unsynchronised lights every 100 m, it stops engine idling but if you are in a stream of traffic that moves off slowly, the long and feeble acceleration will not allow the consumption to be greatly reduced (Prius type excepted).

    I'll try and see whether I can get the original document.
    Brian (the devil incarnate)

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    • #3
      The complete document is at http://www.lepoint2.com/sons/pdf/rap...electrique.pdf, in French, of course.
      Brian (the devil incarnate)

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      • #4
        I once saw on the BBC a documentary on alternative power (presented by James May), and a very interesting idea was by a couple of American scientists. They managed to make fuel from air (using a solar oven). It had the big advantage that the fuel can be used on regular engines, and it is much cleaner as it is way more pure (and as the fuel is extracted from the air, it is carbon-neutral.
        Only downside is that production is not fast (but they think this could be improved).
        Can't seem to find a link to it though...

        When I saw that, it looked like the best solution!

        Jörg
        pixar
        Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die tomorrow. (James Dean)

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        • #5
          I've had a quick run-through of the document. The FT has, indeed, misconstrued some details but the general run of your article is OK. It is actually very interesting and goes into the subject quite deeply in its various comparisons. I did find a few minor errors in the document. It blasts hydrogen to hell and beyond, using the diplomatic epithet "utopian"! Compressed air fares no better, either. What is interesting is that France, Europe and the world are treated separately.

          It's a pity it is not available in English (yet?). A titanic translation effort needed to ensure that all the nuances come through correctly. This is illustrated by the stop/start technique which is far different in the document to what the FT article says ("Les systèmes déjÃ* commercialisés par Valeo et Bosch ou sur le point de l’être par Magneti Marelli permettent de réduire de plus de 20 % la consommation en ville, soit 5 % en cycle normalisé." Valeo and Bosch systems already on the market and about to be by Magneti Marelli allow a consumption reduction of more than 20% in towns or 5% in a standardised cycle.) The figures cited in the FT article are extreme possibilities under ultra-congested conditions at an undetermined future date and are cited in the conditional tense.

          The fact that it has been available to the public for a couple of months rather denies the idea of a total suppression, although the French Government did not cry it aloud from the rooftops. However, newspapers love conspiracy theories!
          Brian (the devil incarnate)

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          • #6
            I wonder what'd be the potential fuel consumption if someone would fit a Prius with a high quality solar roof and bonnet on a sunny day drive.
            "For every action, there is an equal and opposite criticism."

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            • #7
              Originally posted by TransformX View Post
              I wonder what'd be the potential fuel consumption if someone would fit a Prius with a high quality solar roof and bonnet on a sunny day drive.
              Enough to run the CD player?
              Chuck
              秋音的爸爸

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              • #8
                Originally posted by cjolley View Post
                Enough to run the CD player?
                Both GM (for Volt) and Toyota (for the next-gen Prius) will offer optional solar panels on their roof, but they will be used to run the cars A/C system during daylight (perhaps night too as rumors persist about rechargeabe batteries dedicated to running the A/C systems) .

                Toyota's panels will be built by Kyocera. Don't know about Volt.

                These and many other coming vehicles will forgo the HFC based A/C systems of today for high efficiency CO2, which can run on much less power than todays automobile units.

                CO2 was the favorite A/C fluid in the early part of the 20th century because of its high efficiency, but it's a high pressure system (3x to 5x that of CFC's) so low pressure fluids like freon etc. driven by powerful engine-driven compressors eventually replaced it for cost reasons. Now new materials like high strength aluminum alloys are available that make cheap high pressure A/C driven by small electric motors possible.

                Not only the auto industry but the military and others who need portable cooling that runs on little power are very interested in these units - so much so that most all of the major cooling players and auto supplieers are prepping units for the market or are already offering them.

                Set up the system so it can also operate as a heat pump and it can also heat the car.

                There is also a lot of research into other 'old' systems like ammonia because modern materials science has made them viable again
                Last edited by Dr Mordrid; 15 December 2008, 21:53.
                Dr. Mordrid
                ----------------------------
                An elephant is a mouse built to government specifications.

                I carry a gun because I can't throw a rock 1,250 fps

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by TransformX View Post
                  I wonder what'd be the potential fuel consumption if someone would fit a Prius with a high quality solar roof and bonnet on a sunny day drive.
                  Say, for ease, the rooftop is 1 m², which isn't far from fact. A modern production solar panel of that size will give 150 W at 25°C (less at higher temps!). So, one hour's exposure to bright sun will give you 150 Wh of energy. Provided you are already moving on a level road at 20 km/h (no acceleration needed), with no wind, this would be sufficient to drive you at a constant speed somewhere about 85 metres. A fat lot of use!

                  150 W is also insufficient for a car's aircon, especially if it's 40°C outside, when the power output will be down to about 100 W. I've electric aircon on my car, running off the drive batteries. Believe me, I can see the difference of the battery charge when it's on. In fact, if the car has been sitting in the summer sun and I start it up, the aircon doesn't come on until the battery charges up a bit from the petrol engine, after a few hundred metres or so of running. This is the condition which shoots the consumption up a bit. Even so, the engine doesn't switch off until the temp inside the car gets back down to about 28°C. See here for more details.

                  As CJ says, it would be OK for the CD player on a sunny day, provided you don't mind the music running out half-way through the Gotthard tunnel!

                  The guy with a solar car who recently hit the news had the car built specifically for that purpose (not a production model), but he had to tow an enormous trailer with loads of solar panels.
                  Brian (the devil incarnate)

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                  • #10
                    That said, in care use conditions such as here - My car park is >50m from my home, and my car gets used once or twice every 3 weeks. and usually at most a round 50km trip.
                    A solar cell, charging a decent sized battery would leave me using almost zero fuel. - granted that I fill my car atm about 5 times a year
                    Juu nin to iro


                    English doesn't borrow from other languages. It follows them down dark alleys, knocks them over, and goes through their pockets for loose grammar.

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                    • #11
                      To have such a system with an autonomy of 50 km (plus a 50% margin in case you are stuck at traffic lights with the aircon/radio/headlights etc. running) would cost you about $12,000 for the battery, $1,000 for the solar panel, $800 for the control electronics and $200 for the DC>DC converter, on top of the car with electric motors. Would it be worth this extra expense to save you 150 l of petrol/year? I can't see the word amortisation on the horizon. With such intermittent use, the battery life would be reduced into the bargain!

                      The French report had several reasons for trashing EVs (except for purely urban runabouts with a small autonomy), not the least of which is the electrical infrastructure, but their main beef is that, although they see some form of Li-ion as the future battery, they estimate that much more R&D is required before it could possibly become popular. They cite that Toyota has renounced on Li-ion for the next generation Prius, falling back on NiMH, because of current (pun intended) problems with today's technology. They estimate that, at the current rate of development, it may be 2015 before the breakthrough. They cite that Japan is well advanced for urban EV runabouts for internal use.
                      Brian (the devil incarnate)

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        You forgot the bonnet, that's another square meter, making it 200-300W according to your numbers.

                        Also, according to this site, there are solar panels with 40% efficiency in the works, so we can expect a much better output. Not that I expect to run a car even with 2000W. Afterall, a car isn't a vaccum cleaner..

                        Now I don't know how you run your CD player but if I ran mine with 200W, I'd shatter windows within a 20m radius from my home
                        "For every action, there is an equal and opposite criticism."

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          On a different note: http://www.reuters.com/article/rbssC...83052420081208

                          Electric car venture unveils charge stations in Israel
                          Mon Dec 8, 2008 11:56am EST

                          By Ari Rabinovitch

                          TEL AVIV, Dec 8 (Reuters) - California-based electric car operator Better Place unveiled in Israel on Monday its first charging stations as part of a network it hopes will replace gasoline-powered engines worldwide.

                          The $200-million venture-backed company is still in an early stage, testing charge spots in Israel with plans to follow in Denmark, and is working with Renault (RENA.PA: Quote, Profile, Research, Stock Buzz) and Nissan (7201.T: Quote, Profile, Research, Stock Buzz) to develop electric car infrastructure.

                          Better Place has also announced partnerships with Australia, California and Hawaii, worth about $2 billion in total, to expand its network in the coming years as markets search for alternatives to cut carbon emissions and pricey fuel imports.

                          "This is a proof of concept," said Moshe Kaplinsky, chief executive of Better Place Israel, of the 17 charge spots unveiled in the parking lot of a Tel Aviv suburb.

                          The metre-high, slickly-designed posts, each able to charge two cars, mark the half-way point of a six-month pilot project that will total about 400 stations throughout greater Tel Aviv.

                          About 10,000 charge spots will be installed in 2009 across Israel, and that will increase to 100,000 by 2010. Electric cars will not be sold en masse in Israel until 2011, Kaplinsky said.

                          The company's concept combines electric car charge spots at designated parking lots in residential areas and workplaces with battery swap stations to allow longer drives.

                          Consumers have yet to embrace electric cars, partly due to the limitations in battery technologies.

                          Some automakers, like Toyota, are betting they will prefer buying hybrids, rather than compromising vehicle size and driving range with electric cars.

                          Though ailing General Motors Corp (GM.N: Quote, Profile, Research, Stock Buzz), seeking alternatives to traditional internal combustion-powered vehicles, is committed to designing the Chevy Volt, a rechargeable car with a range of 64 km (40 miles).

                          Kaplinsky would not give details on how much drivers will have to pay to hook into its network, but said it would be cheaper than today's fuel costs.

                          The price for a barrel of oil, which surged earlier this year to more than $100, is now about $43. The auto industry has been hammered worldwide, hurt by a plunge in consumer confidence and a desire to buy more fuel-efficient cars.

                          The electric car batteries used in Israel will have a range of 160-200 km (100-125 miles) and on average need between 3-4 hours to charge, Kaplinsky said. Swap stations -- where empty batteries are replaced with fully charged ones -- will be unveiled in coming months.

                          Better Place's grid has a central control that doles out energy based on an algorithm to prevent overloading.

                          Project Better Place, which is headed by former SAP (SAPG.DE: Quote, Profile, Research, Stock Buzz) executive Shai Agassi, will launch a similar pilot project in Denmark in about six months. (Editing by Alastair Macdonald and Andrew Macdonald)

                          © Thomson Reuters 2008 All rights reserved
                          "For every action, there is an equal and opposite criticism."

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by TransformX View Post
                            Now I don't know how you run your CD player but if I ran mine with 200W, I'd shatter windows within a 20m radius from my home
                            Wimp

                            PS 2000W is 2.7 horsepower. I have a non-self-propelled, 26" blade, rotary lawnmower with more than twice that horsepower.
                            The assist motor in our Civic hybrid is relatively small @ 20HP.
                            There is a reason why research satellites that can cost hundreds of millions of dollars and are optimized to use as little power as possible, still have huge solar arrays when their exposure to the sun is totally unobstructed and not subject to night fall.
                            There just isn't enough energy flux in the area on top of a car to do much.

                            Except heat the car up
                            Last edited by cjolley; 16 December 2008, 13:52.
                            Chuck
                            秋音的爸爸

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