When will it end?

[Dr Mordrid]

Bingo!

Even if it isn't necessarily a deterrent then carrying does often put potential defenders at the scene. All it takes is one to grow a pair and put a well placed shot in the perp. A great example is the gal who did just this during the church shooting last summer, putting him down. After that he self-executed, but her action no doubt saved many lives.

[ALBPM]

This will save us all....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7pGt_O1uM8

GUN FREE ZONES
"The Crime Control Act of 1990" was viewed by most as unimportant anti-crime legislation, but the "unintended consequences" have been tragic. It was the "The Crime Control Act of 1990" that established "gun free school zones."

Between the first school killings and the second, 195 years went by without incident. See the list below. Between the Poe Elementary attack and the Stockton School shootings, the "reason" for "gun free school zones," another 30 years went by, with six intervening incidents. In the 225 years between and including the Enoch Brown school massacre and the Stockton shootings there were a total of nine incidents.

You remember Pres. George H.W. Bush, the man who gave us the "New World Order," right? Well, it was he who signed the 1990 crime bill into law, establishing "gun free school zones."

Since "gun free school zones" were established eighteen years ago, there have been an additional sixty-nine incidents. That is more than seven times as many, in the past 17 years, as in the preceding 225 years. Those sixty-nine incidents account for an additional 142 dead and more than 198 wounded. Apparently psychotics prefer killing zones where no one is likely to shoot back. It is time to do away with "gun free school zones."


July 26, 1764 thriugh May 20, 1988


Enoch Brown school massacre - Franklin County, Pennsylvania, July 26, 1764

Poe Elementary School Attack - Houston, Texas, September 15, 1959

University of Texas at Austin massacre - Austin, Texas, August 1, 1966

Jackson State killings - Jackson, Mississippi, May 14-15, 1970

California State University, Fullerton Library Massacre - Fullerton, California, July 12, 1976

Parkway South Junior High School shooting - Saint Louis, Missouri,
January 20, 1983

Laurie Dann - Hubbards Woods Elementary School; Winnetka, Illinois, May 20, 1988


Stockton massacre - Stockton, California, January 17, 1989

It was the Stockton shootings by Patrick Purdey that prompted the gun free zone legislation. Five children were killed and 31 were injured by Purdey, who used a legally purchased AK-47, to commit the deed. California law at the time required a 15 day waiting period and a background check to make the purchase and Purdey passed without a problem, but he shouldn't have.

Although Purdey pulled the trigger, the entire California criminal justice system was also complicit in the massacre. It was only because prosecutors and judges allowed Purdy to plea down his crimes, that he was never convicted of a felony and therefore was able to legally purchase that AK-47. In 1979 Purdey was arrested for extortion and the possession of dangerous weapons. The following year, 1980, he was arrested for sex crimes. In 1982 he was arrested for possession of drugs. In 1983 he was arrested twice, for dangerous weapons and receiving stolen property. In 1984 he was arrested for attempted robbery and conspiracy. And in 1987 he was arrested on weapons charges and resisting arrest. The probation report noted that he was a danger to himself and others.

Seven times Purdey faced serious criminal charges and seven times the courts dropped or plea bargained away the felony charges. Unfortunately, this goes on in our court systems on a daily basis. Judges who allow felons to go free, who then commit a capital crime, should be held responsible as an accomplice to that crime. Perhaps then, judges who allow these people to go free to commit further crimes, might think twice before doing so.


"Gun Free Zones" are now in place.

Most of the following are the "unintended consequences" of gun free school zone legislation. This list is probably incomplete.

The use of "School Unknown" in the list below means that the article, or data base, the information was drawn from did not provide the name of the school in question.

Also, many of the shooters were "off their meds", but drug companies, manufacturers of said "meds," have paid the families of the shooters not to mention the fact. So it is impossible to determine exactly how many were drug related. My guess would be upwards of 90%.


University of Iowa shooting - Iowa City, Iowa, November 1, 1991

Simon's Rock College of Bard shooting - Great Barrington, Massachusetts, December 14, 1992

Montclair High School shooting - Montclair, California, October 18, 1995

Richland High School shooting - Lynnville, Tennessee, November 15, 1995

Frontier Junior High shooting - Moses Lake, Washington, February 2, 1996

School Unknown shooting, St. Louis, Missouri, February 29, 1996

School Unknown shooting, Atlanta, Georgia, September 25, 1996

School Unknown shooting, St. Louis, Missouri, October 31, 1996

School Unknown shooting, West Palm Beach, Florida, January 27, 1997

Regional High School shooting, Bethel, Alaska, February 19, 1997

Pearl High School shooting, Pearl, Mississippi, October 1, 1997

School Unknown shooting, Norwalk, California, October 22, 1997

Heath High School shooting, West Paducah, Kentucky, December 1, 1997

Stamps High School shooting, Stamps, Arkansas, December 15, 1997

Jonesboro massacre - Jonesboro, Arkansas, March 24, 1998

Parker Middle School shooting, Edinboro, Pennsylvania, April 24, 1998

School Unknown shooting, Pomona, California, April 28, 1998

Lincoln County High School shooting, Fayetteville, Tennessee, May 19, 1998

Thurston High School shooting - Springfield, Oregon, May 21, 1998

School Unknown shooting, Columbia, South Carolina, June 6, 1998

School Unknown shooting, Houston Texas, May 21, 1998

Armstrong High School shooting, Richmond, Virginia, June 15, 1998

Columbine High School massacre - Littleton, Colorado, April 20, 1999

Heritage High School shooting - Conyers, Georgia, May 20, 1999

Deming Middle School shooting, Deming, New Mexico, November 19, 1999

Fort Gibson Middle School shooting, Fort Gibson, Oklahoma, December 6, 1999

Beach High School shooting, Savannah, Georgia, March 10, 2000

School Unknown shooting, Lake Worth, Florida, United States, May 26, 2000

School Unknown shooting, New Orleans, Louisiana, September 26, 2000

School Unknown shooting, Glendale, Arizona, October 24, 2000

School Unknown shooting, Oxnard, California, January 10, 2001

Lake Clifton Eastern High School, Baltimore, Maryland, January 17, 2001

School Unknown shooting, Elmira, New York, February 14, 2001

Santana High School - Santee, California, March 5, 2001

School Unknown shooting, Williamsport, Pennsylvania, March 7, 2001

Granite Hills High School shooting, El Cahon, California, March 22, 2001

School Unknown shooting, Gary, Indiana, March 30, 2001

Martin Luther King Jr. High School shooting, New York, New York, January 15, 2002

Appalachian School of Law shooting - Grundy, Virginia, January 16, 2002

School Unknown shooting, San Antonio, Texas, October 4, 2002

Wind River Middle School shooting, Carson, Washington, December 12, 2002

Englewood High School shooting, Chicago, Illinois, December 16, 2002

School Unknown shooting, Jenks, Oklahoma, United States; January 30, 2003

School Unknown shooting, Westminister, Colorado, United States; February 5, 2003

School Unknown shooting, Guttenberg, Iowa, United States; March 17, 2003

School Unknown shooting, Washington, D.C., United States; April 1, 2003

School Unknown shooting, Addison, Texas, United States; April 16, 2003

School Unknown shooting, Red Lion, Pennsylvania, United States; April 24, 2003

School Unknown shooting, Columbus, Georgia, United States; August 14, 2003

Rocori High School shootings - Cold Spring, Minnesota, September 24, 2003

Southwood Middle School tragedy, Miami, Florida; February 3, 2004

School Unknown shooting, Maywood, Illinois, United States; August 30, 2004

North Philadelphia High School shooting, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, United States; November 22, 2004

Lakeside High School shooting, Nine Mile Falls, Washington, United States; December 10, 2004

Red Lake High School massacre - Red Lake, Minnesota, March 21, 2005

Campbell County High School - Jacksboro, Tennessee: November 8, 2005

School Unknown shooting, Essex, Vermont, United States;August 25, 2006

School Unknown shooting, Van Nuys, California, United States; September 13, 2006

Platte Canyon High School shooting - Bailey, Colorado, September 27, 2006

Weston High School shooting, Cazenovia, Wisconsin September 29, 2006

Amish school shooting - Nickel Mines, Lancaster County, Pennsylvania, October 2, 2006

Henry Foss High School - Tacoma, Washington, United States January 3, 2007

Virginia Tech massacre - Blacksburg, Virginia, April 16, 2007
O. E. Green School - Oxnard, California, February 14, 2008
North Illinois University - Decalb, Illinois, February 14, 2008
I didn't include the Kent State shootings because that was a completely different set of circumstances. While a tragedy, it doesn't qualify for this list.

In the U.S., forty-eight states now have concealed carry laws on the books. In a comperhensive study of all public, multiple shooting incidents in America between 1977 and 1999, John Lott and Bill Landes found that concealed carry laws were the only laws that had any beneficial effect. Think about that! And the effect was significant. States with concealed carry laws on the books, reduced multiple shooting attacks by 60% and reduced death and injury from these attacks by 80%.

http://www.thepatriotexchange.com/gunfree.htm

[Dr Mordrid]

Very few places where large numbers of people congregate allow guns.

37 states (last I checked, the list is growing) have "shall issue" permit policies that allow any 'normal' person to have a concealed carry permit. Some other states have "may issue" policies, but only two states (Illinois and Wisconsin) and Washington DC do not issue concealed carry permits, though these policies may have to be changed after the US Supreme Court rules on a case this summer challenging DC's policies. So far the challenge has been upheld in the Federal Appeals Courts.

In the concealed carry states what constitutes an 'allowed person' and the 'limited places' are defined in the enabling legislation. The 'allowed person' definition excludes felons, those under criminal charge, persons who are the target of a protection order, those under mental health care etc. In Michigan the 'limited places' list includes;

hospitals, stadiums, theaters larger than 2,500 persons, schools & dorms, child care providers, casinos, taverns and places of worship.

Even those limitations have exceptions; you're allowed to carry if just dropping your kid off at school or child care providers, if the place of worship allows carrying (ours does for members), the parking lots for the above list (except casinos) etc.

There IS a move to allow college staff and students to carry on campus in light of recent events. The feeling is growing that Utah and those colleges in Colorado that allow concealed carry have it right and that people have the right to defend themselves there just as they would on the streets in front of the institution.

28 states also have "Castle Doctrine" and/or "Stand Your Ground" laws extending the right to self defense, which applies to those who can carry but is not limited to them. This allows persons to defend themselves or others using any available means and with deadly force.

Can we carry when we go shopping? Most certainly. We see fellow permit holders all the time in stores, malls, home centers etc.

Can we carry on the city streets? Yup.

Can we carry in our car? Yup. Without a permit one needs to put the weapon in the trunk, but with a permit you can have it on the seat next to you, in a console holster or on your person.

Can we carry in our home or on our property? Yup, even without concealed carry permits.

Can we carry while hunting/fishing? Yup, also without a concealed carry permit as long as the holster is openly visible and you have a hunting license. This was passed into law in 1945.

Can we act to protect others while in legal possession of our guns? YES, under Michigan's "Castle Doctrine" & "Stand Your Ground" laws which extend ones legally defensible territory to the public streets.

[cjolley]

Ignore bad typing - beer

Looks like you typed beer just fine.
How's this? - Sake

[cjolley]

This has not happened at a school in the State of Utah where licensed teachers and students can carry a concealed weapon.

And it hasn't happened in Oklahoma where they can't.
In fact it's hardly happened anywhere.

Very few places where large numbers of people congregate allow guns.

[Paddy]

When I read this, My first thought was - perhaps antidepressants doenst work right on young people. Perhaps antidepressants cause too much instability, when suddenly switched off.

I always thought that the target clientel for these kinds of drugs where all in their late 50's.

Certainly not. The vast majority that I have prescribed were for people under 50. I'd say the majority was 30-45, but with a significant number under this. I don't doubt that depression is under reported in older groups, but their attitudes to medication differ.

I wonder if using these drugs are actually helping anyone at all.

I'd certainly hope so. Again, with so many confounding factors it is difficult to tell if it is medication or just time. I use the PHQ9 (google) questionairre to asses treatment response.


Ignore bad typing - beer

[DukeP]

One thing remains constant with many of these cases: all too many, including this guy and the one at Virginia Tech, were psychiatric patients who were either on or recently quit taking antidepressants. The number cases where especially young people act out in this manner is IMO becoming very disturbing.

When I read this, My first thought was - perhaps antidepressants doenst work right on young people. Perhaps antidepressants cause too much instability, when suddenly switched off.

I always thought that the target clientel for these kinds of drugs where all in their late 50's.

I wonder if using these drugs are actually helping anyone at all.

~~DukeP~~

[The PIT]

Latest from Chicago;

He had been in a psychiatric program and was on/off my old "friend", Paxil

Doesn't look like the medics etc got it quiet right. Dunno about your country but you've got to consider the persons rights as you can't force them into hospital even though they need help.

[Dr Mordrid]

Latest from Chicago;

He had been in a psychiatric program and was on/off my old "friend", Paxil

[ALBPM]

Actually, let's take a look at the last three or four rampages...

What is in common, aside from the method?

Anti-Depressants.

How many people today are on anti-depressants as compared to twenty years ago, or thirty, or forty?

I'm not saying they are the cause, but they do seem to be an underlying factor.

1.) Antidepressants...

2.) Locations: Schools and Shopping Malls where Firearms are not permitted - "Gun Free Zones" These individuals want the "Power to Off themselves" after taking a large number of Innocent victims with them.

Oh yeah, the retarded notion that if you can't be armed to the teeths, the criminals will kill you.

Yes!!!! Don't you see the pattern here...These events only happen in the so called "Gun Free Zones" where the Law abiding people are known to be unarmed.

This has not happened at a school in the State of Utah where licensed teachers and students can carry a concealed weapon.

[Paddy]

There is a proven association with an increased risk of suicide for young people on SSRIs during the first few weeks of treatment. I am not aware of that extending to violent behavior to others.

As Brian suggested, the fact that someone is on antidepressant therapy is of doubtful relevance to the rates of gun crime due to all the confounding factors. Someone who can casually walk into a school and shoot several people are arguably not of sound mind in the first place.

[MultimediaMan]

Again, Anti-Depressants are proscribed differently country to country... even regionally within a country. I think that a good start would be looking at the actual medications being proscribed along with the dosages. Another question: How many people are taking multiple Anti-Depressants; again what kind and how much? Statistics are hard to come by because of Health Care privacy laws.

Here in the U.S., as long as there is no substance abuse history, if an ordinary person THINKS they are depressed, then that is the clinical diagnosis most of the time. These prescriptions are being handed out by primarily by Family Practicioners and Hospitalists - very few people get diagnosed by a Psychologist. Let's not forget that this is a high-profit enterprise for both the Doctors and the Drug Companies. There are warnings to be sure, but I think they need to made much stronger than they are presently... especially for the Doctors proscribing them.

Another core question is why do these people lose control? Nearly all of these cases have been "extended suicides". These people are making a considered decision to kill, then end themselves. Why? What kind of a mindset does one have to have to rationalize this, and carry it out? How does this mindset develop? Are there causal factors?

One motivational factor seems to be attention given to the person, if only posthumously, who carries out such an act. Any person needs not wonder whether or not they will be remembered if they perform such an act during the course of their suicide. These people seem to be lonely or at least unfulfilled, and tend to think of themselves as ignored or marginalized.

[Dr Mordrid]

Actually many recent studies show that especially young people can react violently to antidepressants or the sudden quitting of same. This has caused many to be "black labeled" for use in young folks, meaning a big huge warning that unfortunately gets ignored by pill pushing shrinks. Playing with brain chemistry in adolescents and young adults with drugs made for older people is not necessarily a good thing.

The Va. Tech killer, this one in Chicago, the kids at Columbine and many, many others are examples where going off the meds was the tipping point. You cannot just 'cold turkey' off these drugs. If you do a dangerous crash is more than just possible. There are many other examples where going on the meds skewed the personality & caused violent behavior mods.

Even though the major news item with antidepressants is young people even some adults can react badly to them, and I'm one of them. Years ago my docs at the pain clinic tried to use Paxil for my chronic nerve pain, which is not an unusual "off label" practice (off label meaning using a drug for a purpose other than its FDA certification, something that is allowed here in the US and rather commonly done).

Within 2 weeks I started having very disturbing thoughts. Fortunately in one of my more 'normal' moments I called the doc and he immediately cut the dose in half, which helped a lot. 3 weeks later he quartered it then 3 more weeks later he stopped it entirely.

I can only imagine what would have happened if I had not recognized something was wrong.

Now imagine an adolescent or young adult having those thoughts but without the experience and common sense of an adult, neither of which they have by definition.

[Brian Ellis]

Could just as easily be the cart before the horse. They rampage because of the frustrations of depression, not because of the fact that they take medication against the depression. Besides which, anti-depressants are widely prescribed the world over. If they were the cause, then it ought to know no geographical boundaries.

OK, let's say that depression is the cause of a sudden mental click, (I'm not saying it is) then rampaging would be rife in those countries with known high levels of suicide, such as Sweden. A rapid Google reveals that this is not the case.

If depression or anti-depressants were the cause of rampages, then the obvious solution is not to treat the depression but to remove or alleviate the fundamental cause of it.

Now, are you sure that depression or anti-depressants is common to all the cases? It strikes me that fury can also be causal. I'm not saying one way or another, just trying to explore whether there is any commonality.

[MultimediaMan]

Actually, let's take a look at the last three or four rampages...

What is in common, aside from the method?

Anti-Depressants.

How many people today are on anti-depressants as compared to twenty years ago, or thirty, or forty?

I'm not saying they are the cause, but they do seem to be an underlying factor.