Martin autopsy / Zimmerman medical report

[Dr Mordrid]

The stippling pattern varies with ammo type, powder type (flake or ball), barrel length and other factors including air density and humidity. Flake gunpowder can travel up to 60 cm from the muzzle while ball powders up to 90 cm, and a shorter barrel shows more dispersion than a longer one - and there is a significant uncertainty factor.

[cjolley]

I had read ~3 feet.
I'm sure there will be a minute dissection of wound angles and arm length and such in the trial.

[xortam]

'"intermediate" distance' is a lot closer than you might think ... I heard it is defined as something like starting at 7 inches or so.

[Umfriend]

You may have not gotten my point because there was a typo in it

I meant to type "Or that Stand Your Ground is incompatible with a right to self defense."

Does that make more sense?

It's because SYG creates a feedback loop in the doctrine of self defense if you believe Dershowitz's logic.

Yes, that sorta is my point and as a result my conclusion is that under SYG you should shoot to kill asap.

But how can that be if moment by moment circumstances can make someone who stands their ground into the aggressor and change the party who is self defending?
Can both claim self defense? That turns the principal of right of self defense into a joke.

And this is why.

[cjolley]

He had Z grounded and stunned. He could have used those football skills to book towards his dad's house.

Would you turn your back on an armed man that attacked you? Get real.
There is no evidence at all that Zimmerman was stunned.
Witness his ability to pull his gun, unlock it, and the bullet wound he was able to create.

Common fallacy. As soon as the bullet hits the heart it stops beating, so no blood pressure. No BP = little bleeding save for gracitation and what little pressure is applied from the arterial walls. Also, the hoodie and whatevercwas under it would catch the vast majority of the blood back-splatter from the impact.

Was there any of Martin's blood on Zimmerman at all? I don't remember reading that, or seeing pictures of his blood splattered shirt.
Makes me glad there will be a trial so we can hear those kinds of things.

And how could he have shot Martin from an "intermediate" distance if Martin was on top of him?

[Dr Mordrid]

>
That's a bit different from this case though. What was Martin supposed to do? Leave Zimmerman there and able to attack him?

He had Z grounded and stunned. He could have used those football skills to book towards his dad's house. He'd have been long gone before Z could react & get up.

And further, if Zimmerman had shot Martin in the heart while Martin was still on top of him Zimmerman would have been COVERED in blood.

Common fallacy. First, the autopsy confirms a direct hit on the heart. As soon as a bullet hits the heart this way it stops beating, so no blood pressure. No BP = little bleeding save for gravitational flow and what little pressure is applied from the arterial walls. Also, the hoodie and whatever was under it would catch the vast majority of the blood back-splatter from the impact. Seen this first hand - too often.

[Dr Mordrid]

Oh! and Hi everyone

Hi back atcha!! How ya doin'?

[cjolley]

Look at it in another context; a mugger accosts you and you shoot and wound him. So far, so good, but if after he's in the inferior position (likely on the ground) you apply another shot in anger you, the initial victim, have committed a crime.

That exact thing happened here and the gun nuts were extremely vocal that what was essentially an execution was justified by self defense claims. The store manage had tuned his back on a robber that had been knocked unconscious by his first shot, retrieved another gun and pumped 5 more into the wounded robber. he is serving a long prison term.

That's a bit different from this case though.
What was Martin supposed to do? Leave Zimmerman there and able to attack him?
I would have done just what it sounds like Martin did; attempt to bang his head on the ground until he was no longer a threat.

And further, if Zimmerman had shot Martin in the heart while Martin was still on top of him Zimmerman would have been COVERED in blood.
That does not seem to be what happened.
So, Martin broke off his attack, or Zimmerman got away and THEN Martin was shot.

[Helevitia]

@Doc, I hear what you are saying and I've struggled with what might have happened, but ultimately I come back to, this would have never happened if Zimmerman didn't get all Chuck Norris on Martin WE will simply have to agree to disagree Hope things are well with you?

@Chuck, Things are fantastic! Today is a good day. I'm blessed to have a beautiful son and daughter. My 5 yr old daughter is amazing I'll post a pic in a new thread so as not to derail this one.

[cjolley]

Hey man. How are things?

[Dr Mordrid]

Trayvon had a right, hut once he had Zimmerman in an inferior position and continued to press the attack in what could be a seriously harmful way he became the aggressor and Zimmerman's right to survive superceded Martin's.

Look at it in another context; a mugger accosts you and you shoot and wound him. So far - so good, but if after he's in the inferior position (likely on the ground) you apply another shot in anger you, the initial victim, have committed a crime and if he pulls a backup gun and shoots you he's within his rights.

[Helevitia]

Oh! and Hi everyone

[Helevitia]

People can use all the fancy words and pointing to laws all they want. That doesn't change the fact that Zimmerman was the aggressor, with a gun, chasing somebody who was doing nothing wrong. Zimmerman obviously had some sort of god or superman complex and I honestly believe he was thinking he was doing the right thing, even if it was delusional.

In my eyes, it's as simple as, Zimmerman thought he was doing the right thing and made poor choices. Martin was defending himself. Zimmerman needs to suffer the consequences of his actions, which is, he killed somebody who did nothing wrong.

[cjolley]

The two defenses, SYG and "regular," are complementary, not mutually exclusive.

But how can that be if moment by moment circumstances can make someone who stands their ground into the aggressor and change the party who is self defending?
Can both claim self defense? That turns the principal of right of self defense into a joke.

[Dr Mordrid]

Prof. Dershowitz may be a liberal, but he's classical liberal with a libertarian streak.

The two defenses, SYG and "regular," are complementary, not mutually exclusive.