RT2000 vs DV500 marketing game heats up!

[This_Idiot]

Try reading this one, it should clarify the position :
http://www.matrox.com/videoweb/endus...acle_dv500.htm

[hippie91]

what it's saying about not outputting in realtime100% is that sometimes, you might add an effect that may not render in realtime (i have a filter that takes literally days to render a short sequence) if it can't render it in realtime it can't output it in realtime... it's really just Matrox covering their asses so noone gets it, adds a crapload of filters and expects it to work perfectally and fast. If you're rendering straight to video (as you would for DV out) it'll output as fast as it has the video ready, but even if it takes 10 mins to output instead of 7, i'm not gonna be too pissed, right now it takes forever to get video ready to output.

[KrisGurrad]

Here is an quote from the Matrox Website. There is more there, so take a look...
http://www.matrox.com/videoweb/endus.../dv_rt2000.htm

Realtime Editing
During the editing process, you work with two video layers and a graphics layer. You can apply organic and 3D transitions, 2D and 3D DVE, and transparency effects in real time — NO RENDERING. You see all your edits and changes instantly on your PAL or NTSC monitor, at full online quality, without waiting for previews to render.

Realtime Analog Output
You can record your program to analog tape in realtime over the composite or Y/C output.

Digital Output

There are three modes of operation for digital output from RT2000:
• You can stream your program from the Adobe Premiere timeline directly to DV tape via 1394 without the need to print your complete project to an AVI file.

• You can record your project on disk as a DV AVI file for archiving or as an interim step in the production process.

• You can record your project on disk as an MPEG-2 AVI file for DVD authoring and distribution.

It goes on, but you can read that for your self. To summarize, the RT2000 can edit DV in real time to the analog outputs, but in order to output via firewire, it may need to render.

Kris

[KrisGurrad]

To clarify, that post is from the Matrox website explaining what it does in native DV editing...

Kris

[Jan De Wever - Anyvision]

DrMordrid:

- the dealer was talking about the stuff and info he got from a dealers meeting. I don't think he was under an NDA.

- you don't think the info on the C-Cub site is interesting? Strange, because that is exactly the basics of any system based on this chip. Like I explained, you cannot have an RT board without a chip(set) that can pass 2 video streams to an effects engine. That is what the C-Cube chip does: it decodes 2 streams of video which it gets from the OS to it's internal codec. This converts these 2 streams to YUV, which are sent to the FX engines used. Basic wipes and dissloves are done in the chip itself (it has this onboard), the rest of the RT FX are applied by the 3D Flex technology on the G400 board. But once and for all: the C-Cube DVXpress MX25 has supports only 1 DV stream of 25mbit/s, and 2 MPEG2 streams at 25mbit/s each. That's the core and the main issue: a limitation of this chipset. It's meant and developed to builmd cheap RT solution, editing in MPEG2!!! But these RT effects are not available when editing in native DV! Matrox throws the term 'Real Time' around very loosely. One time they mean you can import any format without rendering (this is indeed real time also) like analogue, DV, DVCAm, D8, DVCPro, ... and store it as a DV AVI or an MPEG2 AVI, without rerendering. That is indeed real time. But that is not real time effects! Calling this 'not interesting' is a gross oversight.

- I work for nobody. I'm a self emplyed videographer and technology watcher. I just want to find the truth here. And I am under the impression is hiding it and doing a good job at it. Everyone seems to believe this RT hype, while there's a big difference between RT and real real time. RT for me means that your effects do not need to be rendered anyhow and are available for output to tape anytime, without rerendering and to any tape format that is said to be supported. That is certainly not true for the RT2000 or the DV500! These are not real real time solutions. This term is the next marketing buzzword and is abused extensively by Matrox and Pinnacle these days!

- about the users who saw it: I was one of them, at IBC. So that's one of my facts too. And I'll be seeing it again in Brussels next week. Probably Wednesday or Thursday. I'll let you all know.

On the other side: how is it possible that you're so sure? Basing yourself solely on the Matrox site and one other user, and casting aside all these other facts I give you, including the C-Cube technology info?? Again: this C-Cube info is the core of this: if it cannot deliver 2 DV streams at once to the effects engines, there is no RT possible! Or do you knwo more because of other reasons?

Again: 5 days, and I'll be checking it out myself very closely!

------------------
Jan De Wever - Leuven, Belgium
Anyvision Media Services

[jeff b]

Since they will both be using the same C-Cube chip, and they are both licensing the same DV portions of that chip, how did you come to the conclusion that the RT2000 will be any less capable using DV than the DV500 will be? "Native DV editing" is part of the package on both cards, and I'm sure that both cards will be very nice, indeed, for their DV capture and playback capabilities.

I'm sure that, once these products have been on the market for a few months, the aftermarket software to fully utilize and squeeze out every last ounce of Real Time capability will have eventually turned up. At that point, the hardware native DV aspects of these two cards will have been seen to be the same. At the outset, though, it's hard to call which software package might be taking the best advantage of those capabilities during those first few months out of the gate.

[IvanP]

This_Idiot (Chris if I remember right):

There were a few threads discussing incoming RT2000 at this forum. I've seen the term "vaporware" somewhere. I don't remember any HW discussed so much before release.
Personally I will rather wait for real card(s) and for the first feedback here.
I don't want to enter into this RT discussion but This_Idiot has put forward the possibility to ask some questions at the Digital Media World exhibition in London next Tuesday. So my questions are: (sorry if some of them has been answered here)

1. Suppose I'll choose to work with MPEG2 I-frame avi. Can I capture from DVin to MPEG2 avi? If I have to transcode later is it possible and how quick is it if you compare it to real time of clip?

2. There is a G400 flex 3D edition included in package. Will it be replaceable with possible new generation of graphic cards (higher performance, more effects, ...)?

3. There is also a mention about MPEG-1 output for VideoCD production for example. Does it fulfill ISO standards for VideoCD 2.0. Are there any parameters of video/(audio) streams that I can change to MPEG1 output? Which one?

4. More important is MPEG2 IPB output. There is written MP@LP but there are other important parameters. Does it use VBR encoding? Can I adjust any other parameters of encoding process? Which one?

5. Is there any time difference in transcoding (outputting) to MPEG2 (IBP) from DV and from MPEG2 avi?

6. What about Win2k support. Is it ready at this time for beta testers?

7. Can this hardware or drivers profit from dual processor configuration. (If Yes for Q6).


Thanks in advance,

Ivan

I hope it's not late before your journey to London.
Also I'm looking forward to Jan's response from Brussels.




[This message has been edited by IvanP (edited 12 November 1999).]

[wkulecz]

Doc,

Trust us?

I trusted all the good things I heard here about the G200 Marvel. So far its been a total piece of crap and waste of time for me!

Either y'all have been lucky, Matrox tech support is so stupid as to exchange a defective board for one with a different defect, or the insiders here are getting "tweaked" product that is not what is being marketed.

Wasting ~$300 on the marvel sucks but it'll have saved me wasting ~$1200 on the RT2000.

If it took the G400 Marvel to fix the G200's problems matrox should be offering an exchange program, no more that $50 exchange/upgrade or so. Actually I doubt I'd go for it as the G400 samples Elie has shown still have the image shift down and left problems on transcodes to MPEG (or other AVI codec) which leaves a black border on top and bottom.

--wally.

[jeff b]

I just ran across a post by Gary Bettan from Videoguys on the rec.video.desktop newsgroup today, in which he says their current ship date goal for the RT2000 is December 1st.

Just thought I'd pass that on here...

[Grigory]

Hi all,

Nice discussion about something that does not exist now.

Ok, one point that makes me curious:
1. Flex 3D takes two uncompressed video streams and does transition. Which processor works for effect? Video card processor only. CPU remains free (if flex 3D effect is in use)
2. The SYSTEM must produce two uncompressed video streams and sent them to video card. One stream can be made from DV with c-cube chip. Does this consume any CPU power? I suppose NO. So, for one video stream, and for flex 3D, the CPU is not in heavy use. Everything is done by the other processing units. What can CPU do while c-cube chip make video stream? It can produce another from DV with software DV codec. It is now possible with Canopus codec, for example. The CPU load will be 80% for existing codec, and for Celeron 450. So, CPU still has 20% left for system servicing like data reading and so on.

What we have - with one CPU and one c-cube chip, the system with average power CPU can produce two uncompressed video streams in realtime from two DV streams! For modern CPU, and fast DV decoder, and flex 3d, only one hardware DV decoder is necessary to get RT edited stream on analog output.

For Mpeg2, the CPu power may be not enough to generate uncompressed video, so c-cube chip has to do decompression for both streams.

That is my idea, based on what I see is possible now, even whithout c-cube chips.

Imagine you have dual CPU setup. Is it possible now to play two DV video files in reatime on PC screen. YES, one stream is decoded by one CPU, and another by the second.
So, you NOW can see an "effect" on you PC monitor, which is reatime show of two videos in two windows. If you could tell the video card to do some more complex "mixing" of two streams, you will call such ability FlexVideoMixing, which Matrox actually did.

The additional decoding chip is necessary only for single CPU, because it has not enough power to decode two streams.
Make conclusion.
I am not saying that this was done in RT2000 - I just think this IS possible.

I suppose the key feature of RT2000 is the first attempt to use 3D engine of video card for video editing instead of pure gaming.


Grigory

[Jan De Wever - Anyvision]

I have been thinking the same.

But that is a very dangerous approach. Matrox is aiming this product at the videographers market. These people are there to edit vieo. They do not want to hear tat on their specific system this or that will not work, because their CPU cannot support that seconds DV stream. The least interruption, like a CDROM inserted, a fax modem responding, a call to an IDE drive, ... all these examples take not much CPU time, but when they first do it, they take a lot more. That can cause serious interruptions.

What you describe requiers a rock steady system. Most systems I saw and helped tweaking were certainly not stable. Screwed up settings, wrong drivers, ... Crash a gogo. So, if this is what they would be doing to squeeze a second DV stream out of it, I'd say it's a very dangerous and crash prone approach.

I doubt it. I'll know more next Wednesday or Saturday, when I can go to the ACF trade show in Brussels.

------------------
Jan De Wever - Leuven, Belgium
Anyvision Media Services

[Grigory]

Jan,

I have no specific idea whether it is possible or not to do RT editing with two input DV streams on RT2000.

However, "pure" theoretically, it is possible. As for your arguments - do you think those events like CD inserted, Fax, others, are acceptable while you simply capture one video stream? NO.

I tried to capture TWO streams with Raptor and analog capture device. In that case I was able to do analog captures with software compression too. The CPU usage level of 90% was enough to be sure that both DV capture/playback stream and analog capture with software compression would work smoothly on my very average celeron 464 (300a @ 103 MHz) PC.
The frame drops occured if I did anything else which required hard drive access.
However, this was not related to CPU activity - just access itself can easily interrupt one of two data streams.

So, your argument about all these things will work with ANY dual stream editing solution. There is no way to do dualstream RT editing without READING two streams from file system.

As for CPU, its 10% of remaining power is typically enough to keep smooth dualstream reading/writing with software compressor/decompressor for such simple cases as full window drag in Windows and switching focus between applications.

Yes, such ability depends on how good the cards are designed. For example, DV Raptor can do captures well even on slow and fragmented drives, but not Matrox RR_G.

I could do "dualstream" DV + analog video captures with noncompressing analog capture card. It alone can work well up to 90% of peak datarate limit of my hard drive.
So, only well done pair of devices can provide you dual stream reading/writing capability.

BTW, apart of marketing words, what is the need to do RT editing - live broadcasting? If so, do you plan to rely on common PC solutions and on cheap (for this type of application) consumer-level devices?
In my imagination, to get something in realtime you have to solve a lot of problems, starting from very fast and reliable drive array, UPS, isolation of your PC from all unwanted events while it does RT broadcast, ...
The cost of these measures may be much higher than the cost of a single card like RT2000.
As I can understand, RT editing is advertized as ability of card to do this in principle, on specially developed PC, otherwize it can produce RT video sometimes or for short previews.

Mr. Marketing names this RT editing.

You can do RT export to tape from Premiere timeline with Raptor (after all rendering), but there are common mistakes in distribution of temp and preview files that may cause glitches.
I also think that doing tape export operation from a "heavy" application like Premiere with all its code modules loaded in RAM, and bugs, has a danger you get a glitch because of system load/stability issues.

For safety, I always try to escape timeline export, unless I have to do this.

I make several ready video files as parts of full story and then use Raptor Video. Being much less "heavy" applcation, it can do multiple file playback from playlist perfectly.


Grigory

[This_Idiot]

Amongst the noise and confusion of Digital Media World expo in London, I did manage to get a good look at both RT2K and DV500.

I'll be trying to martial my notes and post some details later on this evening (or possibly tomorrow), but my initial view is that this is going to be another case of "horses for courses".

Ivan, I did ask your questions and will be posting the answers.