OT: Pictures of Weapons of Mass Destruction

[Hulk]

"Bush wouldn't even have a televised debate with Saddam. Why?
For fear that Bush would look more stupid than he does already?"


This is really amazing to say. Do you know that Hussain gassed his own people and killed thousands? He should be locked up or killed for that alone. Do you know that he invaded Kuwait and killed and/or tortured thousands of Kuwaities? Again, a war crime of Nazi magnitude. Do you remember what happened at the Nuremberg trial? Do you know how many of his own people he has tortured and made disappear. Say what you want about Bush, but how many Americans has HE killed and tortured, I'm not joking here either. To give Saddam Hussain "equal time" is naive and misguided, and quite scary. People like you really do scare me so I am going to end this discussion right now. You I think your political ideology has overwhelmed your sense of right and wrong. Why don't we let all of the convicted murderers have a debate with their judges on TV and see how it goes? Remember, Saddam DID kill those people, no question about it.


"I am just as skeptical of Saddam as anyone, but the interview with Dan Rather has cast a different shade of light on Saddam for me."

Simply unbelievable that you would say this. Yeah, he sounds like a nice guy, he won't do anything bad again.

Ray, try to get beyond your predisposed politics on this subject. I'm personally far beyond politics and can actually see both sides of the issue, I'm not gung ho for war, but I do see the dilemma we face. Pull the troops out and we know the inspectors are thrown out too, he'll have a nuke in short order. And make no mistake, I do know the difference between President Bush and Saddam Hussain. I'm no Clinton lover, you know that, but as much as I despise his politics, I would rather have Clinton as my President for the rest of my life than Saddam Hussain. As an American, I would NEVER compare or degrade any Democrat or Republican by such a comparison.

Think it over buddy.

-Mark

[Jkun]

Jeez, this thread is still unlocked?

Hulk, chill man, you're turning green

From my friends in the USA I know, that you're opinion isn't the only one in America. Not everybody buys Bush propaganda-cereal for breakfast.

And so I know, that American taxpayers will not "remember" us Europeans as you would like. They won't boycott us or anything, they know we're not anti American. We're just anti-war (and of course a little anti-Bush). You'll notice we still buy American goods, and welcome American visitors here. But maybe we just have a better sense of humour than you do?

Advanced medicine:

A British doctor says "Medicine in my country is so advanced that we can take a brain out of one man, put it in another and have him looking for work in six weeks."

A German doctor says, "That's nothing, we can take a brain out of one person, put it in another and have him preparing for war in four weeks."

The American doctor, not to be outdone, says, "You guys are way behind, we just took a man with no brain out of the desert of Texas, put him in the White House, and now half the country is looking for work, and the other half is preparing for war."



J-kun

[Topha]

Hulk:
Watch "Bowling for Columbine", you'll see that America has caused its share of suffering over the years, usually suceeding in displaying it as an act of liberating one country or the other. Hussein himself was given his power by America in 1982. They also trained Osama Bin Laden, if you're not aware of that. And yes, the movie was made by an American (before you ask), and its really good.

George W. sentenced ~150 people to death while he was governor in Texas.

For your consideration...

"Jeez, this thread is still unlocked?" Can't believe it myself

maybe we should stop this thread, before Desktop Video suffers the same fate the soap box did



edit: fixed the capital N in can't

[jeff b]

...and don't forget: if you're well-adjusted these days, then you're just not paying attention!

Jeff B

[Ray Austin]

Originally posted by Hulk
"Bush wouldn't even have a televised debate with Saddam. Why?
For fear that Bush would look more stupid than he does already?"


This is really amazing to say. Do you know that Hussain gassed his own people and killed thousands? He should be locked up or killed for that alone.

Yes, I know it by people talking about it and saying that he did it. But in are judicial system that would amount to heresay.

Do you know that he invaded Kuwait and killed and/or tortured thousands of Kuwaities? Again, a war crime of Nazi magnitude. Do you remember what happened at the Nuremberg trial? Do you know how many of his own people he has tortured and made disappear.

I know that he invaded Kuwait, and we bombed him for it, and sanctioned him and his country into poverty for 12 yrs now.... although Saddam himself really wasn't punish... he was able to smuggle oil out and still make money and do what he wants.

Say what you want about Bush, but how many Americans has HE killed and tortured, I'm not joking here either. To give Saddam Hussain "equal time" is naive and misguided, and quite scary.

Well, lets see we bombed the heck out of Afghanistan, the exact count is a mystery. Iraq is sure to lose many. and then you have the executions in Texas as stated above. The ONLY difference is he had a reason and world support to do it.

People like you really do scare me so I am going to end this discussion right now. You I think your political ideology has overwhelmed your sense of right and wrong. Why don't we let all of the convicted murderers have a debate with their judges on TV and see how it goes? Remember, Saddam DID kill those people, no question about it.

And you think it's going to get better once we go over there and do this. How many young children will view these ghastly images possibly lose their parents or worse? Who in their minds is the villan then? Then we don't just have a few loose cannons, but thousands maybe millions if not already. It's only right for Bush because they hit us first? Since when does 2 wrongs make it right?

Then after all of this we get to look forward to another Bin Laden in 10 to 15 yrs. Vengence is a two way street... don't forget it. We are the World Super Power and we set the example for the rest of the world to follow.... so far they are doing exactly that.
So it's not me you need to be afraid of.... I would be the least of your worries.

"I am just as skeptical of Saddam as anyone, but the interview with Dan Rather has cast a different shade of light on Saddam for me."

Simply unbelievable that you would say this. Yeah, he sounds like a nice guy, he won't do anything bad again.

Well if you saw the program you would know what I am talking about. I think the biggest problem is in most part a communication gap. What harm would be done to do it? That is my point. What does Bush have to hide. Our country is not above secrets nor are we above the law and neither is George, what is the real motivation behind this?

Some interesting facts: Saddams military is one third the size it was when they occupied Kuwait. Our military has more technology advanced weaponry than we had during the Gulf war.

Ray, try to get beyond your predisposed politics on this subject. I'm personally far beyond politics and can actually see both sides of the issue, I'm not gung ho for war, but I do see the dilemma we face. Pull the troops out and we know the inspectors are thrown out too, he'll have a nuke in short order.

Ok, so because we have this fear that Saddam will have nuclear capability we go in and bomb him, then once he and his son are removed from power then what? How long do we sit there making more enemies? What guarantees do we have that another dictator will not emerge after we leave?

And make no mistake, I do know the difference between President Bush and Saddam Hussain. I'm no Clinton lover, you know that, but as much as I despise his politics, I would rather have Clinton as my President for the rest of my life than Saddam Hussain. As an American, I would NEVER compare or degrade any Democrat or Republican by such a comparison.

I never said I wanted Saddam for president... lol. Yeah it's too bad Clinton couldn't run another term, then maybe I could find a decent job, but hey at least those cap. gains taxes will be no more....mmmm makes me all warm and tingly inside.

[thop]

Oh well you're lucky you didn't post his in the Soap Box ehm i mean Lounge. This thread would've been locked 10 posts earlier.
Hulk: Give it a rest. People have different opinions, accept that. After all it was only meant as a joke

[Ray Austin]

Hey while we are on this subject I just happened to get some

NEW SPY PHOTOS



you can check them out here.....

http://www.museumofconceptualart.com/un_proof/

so now you can be rest assured we absolutely have a reason for war.

[Hulk]

Ray,

I can understand non-Americans being anti-American, blame America first, etc... France is trying to be relevant, and it's possible Germany still carries enormous guilt from the WWII. But, they may be surprised at the economic repercussions they will see from their actions, you know which party in this country pays the tax burden, they will "vote" for which country they will support with their pocketbooks.

BTW, I have no malice toward the French or Germans. I am upset with their leadership right now, and hate to categorize a whole country based on the leadership. I would just expect a little benefit of the doubt from our allies. If they were on our side I believe Saddam would have already given in and come fully come clean with ALL of his weapons. They are only serving to give him hope.

People above all else are individuals, and should be judged accordingly. For that reason this whole debate is distasteful to me.

What I don't understand is the anti-American, blame America first Americans. Why doesn't anybody protest Saddam Hussain? Because this is simply and anti-Bush movement, nothing else. The French and Germans have gotten our liberal patsy's to bend over backwards for them. All of the anti-war rallies are organized by socialist party kooks with their own agendas.

The "silent" majority in this country, those that support freedom and security from terrorists and terrorist regimes that invade their neighbors may not be on the news everyday, but we are here, and in MUCH larger number than the world knows. When we are nuked or struck by terrorists again, or some other country is, don't worry, as usual, we'll do the heavy lifting and do what has to be done. Like we did in WWI, WWII, Korea, etc...


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ray Austin
"Yes, I know it by people talking about it and saying that he did it. But in are judicial system that would amount to heresay."


So that means he didn't do it? Nonsense.



"I know that he invaded Kuwait, and we bombed him for it, and sanctioned him and his country into poverty for 12 yrs now.... although Saddam himself really wasn't punish... he was able to smuggle oil out and still make money and do what he wants."


Okay, so the UN shouldn't have imposed ANY sanctions because it wouldn't affect Hussain? No, don't blame the sanctions for what happened to the Iraqi people, it's Saddam's fault. When robber kills a hostage and says, "you made me do it!" that doesn't hold up in court, it's just ricidulous, as is your argument here.


"Well, lets see we bombed the heck out of Afghanistan, the exact count is a mystery. Iraq is sure to lose many. and then you have the executions in Texas as stated above. The ONLY difference is he had a reason and world support to do it. "


Your point? We shouldn't have bombed Afganistan? Maybe so, but we're not talking about Afganistan. All Saddam has to do is come clean and this will be over. Don't confuse the issue and protect the murderer.


"And you think it's going to get better once we go over there and do this. How many young children will view these ghastly images possibly lose their parents or worse? Who in their minds is the villan then? Then we don't just have a few loose cannons, but thousands maybe millions if not already. It's only right for Bush because they hit us first? Since when does 2 wrongs make it right? "


Okay Ray, history lesson. There was a unconditional surrender after the Gulf war. He was supposed to comply unconditionally with the cease fire conditions. He did not and we are 17 UN resolutions later. He is not complying and hostilities are going to resume. And, yes, overall, I think liberating the Iraqi people will do a good thing. Every free Iraqi I've heard speak out in this country agrees.



"Then after all of this we get to look forward to another Bin Laden in 10 to 15 yrs. Vengence is a two way street... don't forget it. We are the World Super Power and we set the example for the rest of the world to follow.... so far they are doing exactly that.
So it's not me you need to be afraid of.... I would be the least of your worries. "


Listen closely, WHENEVER YOU BOW TO TERRORISM YOU WILL RECEIVE MORE TERRORISM. Look at Israel. Yes, we are a Super Power and we must follow through with 1441 or it will mean nothing and other rogue nations will follow Iraq. If we followed the path liberals in this country want we would not be a super power. Think about who we'd be like.



"Well if you saw the program you would know what I am talking about. I think the biggest problem is in most part a communication gap. What harm would be done to do it? That is my point. What does Bush have to hide. Our country is not above secrets nor are we above the law and neither is George, what is the real motivation behind this?"

No, our biggest problem is a homicidal manic dictactor running and entire country. Everything he said in that interview was a lie. In fact it wasn't an interview, Dan Rather rolled over like a doormat. Iraq controlled the cameras and the editing, it was pure propaganda, nothing else. Sadly, you bought it.

Bush has nothing to hide. In fact, he probably won't get re-elected for this, he is doing what he thinks is right. You simply don't have a meaningful dialog with a murdering dictator. Hussain's regime is built on 30 years of lies and deceit, in that game he is the best.


Another history lesson. Do you remember Neville Chamberlain? In 1938 he met with Hitler at the behest of the European appeasers and told Britan, "don't worry, Hitler only wants peace." You know the rest.


" Some interesting facts: Saddams military is one third the size it was when they occupied Kuwait. Our military has more technology advanced weaponry than we had during the Gulf war."


It's not his military I'm worried about. It's the resources he has with a nation behind him to create and distribute weapons of mass destruction. Have you really thought about any of this? Amazing.


"Ok, so because we have this fear that Saddam will have nuclear capability we go in and bomb him, then once he and his son are removed from power then what? How long do we sit there making more enemies? What guarantees do we have that another dictator will not emerge after we leave? "


Okay, here we go again. We've been in Japan and Germany for over 50 years. Yes, it was a lot of work, and cost a lot of money, but don't you think it worked out rather well for those two countries. They are free to protest and vote for their leaders

No guarantees that another dictator won't come in, but when most people get a taste of freedom they tend to enjoy the taste.

You will see Saddam's regime fall quite quickly when we begin to move. Saddam has the appearance the country is behind him, but you know they are not or we would see some Iraqi's in the streets protesting him, of course they would be killed for that.

"I never said I wanted Saddam for president... lol. Yeah it's too bad Clinton couldn't run another term, then maybe I could find a decent job, but hey at least those cap. gains taxes will be no more....mmmm makes me all warm and tingly inside. "


I thank God daily that Algore or the Great Stainmaker aren't president now

Ray, I'm afraid of this impending war too. And I don't want it. But I know that Hussain will have weapons grade plutonium made from the breeder reactors are friends the French sold them. As we all know, the breeder reactors start with U235, create U238, and finally Plutonium. Hussain will have a nuke in a few years, at most. And he will use it on Israel, one of his neighbors, or the US. Or the dirty bomb, or anthrax, or, well, take your pick.

I truly wish and hope you are right, but I fear you are not. HIstory favors my argument.

In this case, I pray I am proven wrong.

If you are anti-war, that's fine, just make sure you lay blame on this situation where it belongs, Saddam Hussain and his regime. Not Bush, the US, or the Iraqi people.

BTW, I think that getting rid of all of these SUV's would be a good start on helping things in the MidEast. I personally won't buy a car that can't get at least 25mpg. I hate the Republicans being beholden to big biz as much as the Democrats being beholden to Labor unions and trial lawyers. We actually need to get rid of the party system.

If we are not going to war with Iraq I just wish we would pull ALL of our troops out of the mid East. Let France and Germany put troops in place to pressure Hussain to allow the inspectors to continue.

Okay, that's all.

Thanks for the debate! I'm going to edit some video.

-Mark

[thop]

whaddyaknow the soap box was secretely moved to the video forum

[Jkun]

Good grief Hulk...

Ever thought of a career as TV Evangelist?

Neko

[Ray Austin]

Ok this is my last rebutal as these posts were only intended as jokes, nothing more, nothing less.

I am on the fence as to whether we should go to war or not. I haven't decided what is the proper thing to do. I think if you look closely at the polls they demonstrate nearly the same thing.

My biggest gripe is the lack of evidence. Sure Collen Powell made his argument and all with the spy photos, but this is an awful lot of guess work. I am talking hard concrete evidence that would persuade the other countries of the UN. This plainly shows Bush is not doing his homework.

The UN has found weapons, but as Saddam said they were legal according to the resolution. I don't think he understood that at this stage of the game, that he must completely disarm. The weapons that the UN has found certainly aren't the mass destruction ones we are searching for.

Israel has never come into this picture until we started bombing Iraq. There have been reports of them supporting and training palestinian martyr's, but you know how are news agencies report these days, they use all the drama they can muster to get high ratings.

I am a hard fact person, I want the hard facts, not this oh I heard this from this guy on the corner of 5th and elm near the 3 legged dog.

Does this make me anti- American, I hardly think so. This is all about preventing another 9-11. That is it in a nutshell. To end terrorism as we know it. So to do that, how many more countries do we plan to bomb after this one? How many more enemies to we plan to wake up?

Iraq thinks we are after their oil and land, not that we are wanting a peaceful region with no threats here or abroad.

Yes we are talking about Afghanistan, they were or are the same threat they were before 9-11. All this has to do with terrorism.

But somehow in this Bush has sidestepped and wants to punish someone, Iraq is a threat so they get the brunt end of the stick.

It's common in american households as well, you have a bad day at work and go and take your grief out on the dog.

I am not condoning terrorism, nor did I ever say bombing Afghanistan was wrong, we had every right to do what we did, but my biggest point in all of this is this:

The World is watching us, we are the leaders are we not? I know of no other country that gets more involved in world affairs than we do. This means we should act responsibly and rationally.

I can't say that I am for war and I can't say I'm not for it. It's an ify question at best and my vote would be to give the UN more time to look. We should exhaust ourselves giving Iraq the benefit of the doubt, when that fails and light is shed on the facts [such as biochemical war fare, not some crummy russian made piece of junk bomb that's as accurate as Windows95 time clock] then war should be the obvious outcome.

I hope I came across clear.

~Ray

[Hulk]

Ray,

Unbelievably, I think this crazy thread has brought us closer on this issue. I agree with most of what you say, of course I don't want war, and of course I want better relations around the world, I think I have a little more faith in the current administration than you do. That's all.

I don't think you or anyone protesting the war is anti-American, I think there are others connected with the protests that do have other motives. And I also think it's "hip" right now to bash America.

I'm exhausted with this too. Let's just hope EVERYONE keeps a cool head and sanity prevails.

Take care,

Mark

[thetoe]

hey hulk,


mega dittos!!!

[Duty]

Originally posted by Ray Austin
hahaha ROFLMAO!


Jeff, the link is good... you have to read it fully!

Yes, yes it is...


Thanks

[Hulk]

Does Anyone remember this??

It was 1987! At a lecture the other day they were playing an old news video of Lt.Col. Oliver North testifying at the Iran-Contra hearings during the Reagan Administration.

There was Ollie in front of God and country getting the third degree, but what he said was stunning!

He was being drilled by a senator; "Did you not recently spend close to $60,000 for a home security system?"

Ollie replied, "Yes, I did, Sir."

The senator continued, trying to get a laugh out of the audience, "Isn't that just a little excessive?"

"No, sir," continued Ollie.

"No? And why not?" the senator asked.

"Because the lives of my family and I were threatened, sir."

"Threatened? By whom?" the senator questioned.

"By a terrorist, sir" Ollie answered.

"Terrorist? What terrorist could possibly scare you that much?"

"His name is Osama bin Laden, sir" Ollie replied.

At this point the senator tried to repeat the name, but couldn't pronounce it, which most people back then probably couldn't. A couple of people laughed at the attempt. Then the senator continued. Why are you so afraid of this man?" the senator asked.

"Because, sir, he is the most evil person alive that I know of", Ollie answered.

"And what do you recommend we do about him?" asked the senator.

"Well, sir, if it was up to me, I would recommend that an assassin team be formed to eliminate him and his men from the face of the earth."

The senator disagreed with this approach, and that was all that was shown of the clip.






By the way, that senator was Al Gore

Also:

Terrorist pilot Mohammad Atta blew up a bus in Israel in 1986. The Israelis captured, tried and imprisoned him. As part of the Oslo agreement with the Palestinians in 1993, Israel had to agree to release so-called "political prisoners."

However, the Israelis would not release any with blood on their hands, The American President at the time, Bill Clinton, and his Secretary of State, Warren Christopher, "insisted" that all prisoners be released.

Thus Mohammad Atta was freed and eventually thanked the US by flying an airplane into Tower One of the World Trade Center. This was reported by many of the American TV networks at the time that the terrorists were first identified. It was censored in the US from all later reports.