The future of video cameras?

[Frank Marshall]

Solid-state memory applications for computing have been debated previously around here but now a camera has actually arrived that shows the technology's potential, the Sanyo VPC-C1 Xacti:

http://dp-now.com/archives/000432.html

Check out its tiny size and the fact it can take 3MP stills, making it a true hybrid and way more efficient than that lumpen and expensive Samsung(?) swivel-cam attempt. The Sanyo stores everything on SD memory cards and uses MPEG-4 compression to deliver video claimed to be of DVD quality. It connects to computers via USB2, though I suppose SD memory card readers could also bring the data across(?).

As a basic point-and-shoot camera, the only major limitation that I can discern from the specs is the lack of onboard image stabilisation (stabilisation is done in post with supplied software!). Sure, you only get 5 minutes of video out of the standard 128MB SD card but a 512MB stick is available (albeit at a hefty price) and 1GB sticks are on the way. This product is a bit "ahead of the curve"; prices on memory need come down for the camera to attract more of those who are interested in its video capabilities.

The exciting thing about this camera for videographers is that it portends the end of linear, tape-based camcorders while offering a much more elegant solution than DVD-RAM alternatives. Once solid-state memory is readily available in the 1gig capacity (>40mins of video) at reasonable prices and camera features improve, I expect this will be a very compelling format indeed.

Though I was expecting such a development to grow out of the digital still camera industry as it increasingly incorporates video capabilities into its cameras, I was really surprised that this highly effective hybrid camera has arrived on the market so soon and at such an attractive price: $1100 Australian (~$700 U.S.?).

I should point out I have no affiliation with Sanyo or the retailing of camcorders in any way whatsoever. I submit this thread merely as a video enthusiast, in order to inform and stimulate discussion on technological developments in videography.

Your thoughts ladies and gentlemen?

[Dr Mordrid]

Sure there'll be separate video camera's, if for no other reason than the ability to have decent lenses and have enough mass to hold steady.

Dr. Mordrid

[Frank Marshall]

Oh sorry doc, I was still editing the original post and you have replied to an earlier draft.

I suggested that perhaps still and video cameras could cease to be distinct categories thanks to the kind of hybridisation that now seems to be underway.

One of the reasons I edited that out was because I realised that for professional applications, that would probably never be the case. Nevertheless, for domestic applications this will almost certainly happen: one camera does all.

[Hulk]

I think consumer video and still cameras may converge when the move to solid state media is made. But I think this will be even for the lower end of consumer cams.

All in one devices will always be inferior to dedicated still or video cameras. The lens configuration is different for both, as is the CCD. There are just too many compromises to be made for either to perform really well.

That being said, I think high quality solid state media video cams are getting closer and closer. A 40x 1GB Lexar CF card is now less than $300, with transfer speeds of over 2MB/sec. Plenty fast enough for high quality MPEG-2 I frame video, which is quite editable.

Mark

[Ray Austin]

Ok I am a serious fan of technological advancement, but in all honesty this camera is a toy to put it bluntly.

Not that I am trying to pick on you Frank.

I see one major problem in that it's so small trying to keep it steady would be impossible. Forget using a tripod... it's out of the question. I think at most it's a novelty item at best and would most likely compete with the cell phone camera market if anything.

I think solid state memory devices are a little bit ahead of there time just yet.

It's obvious HI-DEF is the future. There is already a camera avail in this format that uses regular mini-DV tape. So tape will be around for quite awhile longer. Not that I am a fan of tape.... cause I'm not. Tape sux end of that story.

Just made the leap to DVD and absolutely love it.

I also like the idea of small form factor Hard Drives used to capture with. I think as time goes on this may be the media of choice. For one... time-restraints is a major problem with mini-DV with only 1hr capture. If you are filming an event, having to change tapes in the middle of it sucks to say the least.

Can you imagine doing that with this cam? every 15 to 20 min. or less? Not to mention the spraying effect that is displayed with what video it does record because it's so small.

To demonstrate what I mean give your regular camera to your kid sister or brother that has never filmed anything and have them capture a fast moving event. Been there done that! It's enough to make ya hurl chunks.

Other than those problems it is really cute.

[Hulk]

I just got a new 256MB Lexar CF card and USB 2.0 reader. I tested this combo and it can write a single file at over 5MB/sec, it can read at over 8MB/sec. The speed obstacle really isn't a problem anymore. As soon as prices on these cards come down I think we'll see some "real" CF enabled video camcorders.

Mark

[Marshmallowman]

They should RAID them , a pair of fast 1 Gig CF cards should be quite usable for video

[Ray Austin]

well to do an hour of DV you will need 13 of those 1gigers raided together... all that when a dv tape that can do the same costs $5.

maybe in another 5yrs. "Maybe."

small inexpensive hard-drives are availalbe now, I think it's a more viable solution.

[Hulk]

Ray,

I would bet that we'll see the end of tape in the consumer video market in less than 5 years.

[Ray Austin]

I think it's obvious tape is on the way out. Sony just this year came out with a DVD based camera.

However, the biggest thing that I dislike about such devices is that they use their own propietary consumable. It's not enough for them to sell you the camera, batteries, lenses and other accessories, they also want to sell the recording media too.

How much harder would it have been for sony to let you use a normal DVD-RW disk?

They brought out a digital camera only a few years ago that could copy images to a floppy disk... so we know they are capable.

When memory gets even faster and prices are low we could see many devices show up with them. PC's may get to zero wait state loading as the OS would stay in an "on" state in the memory. You just turn the PC or device on and it's on... no loading required.

Well maybe I'm dreaming...

[Marshmallowman]

I think you would be using some form of mpeg 4 or some other high compression codec...DV is not tha viable for something like that.

[Dr Mordrid]

Some of MPEG-4's non-streaming profiles run as high as 15000 kB/s for ITU-601 SD (profile: ACE/L3) and 38400 kB/s for 1920x1080 HD (profile: ACE/L4).

ACE = advanced coding efficiency = formerly: Main Plus

Lx = Level x

Dr. Mordrid

[Frank Marshall]

Oh yes, this particular camera is a bit of a "toy," no-one is claiming any serious application for it. The Sanyo is squarely aimed at video amateurs but I think it's very exciting because of what this extraordinary little camera portends/predicts/suggests for the future of camera design.

Surely the absence of moving parts with solid-state memory is a major improvement on "traditional" mechanical storage methods, including the latest DVD recordable solutions and even mini-HDDs, precisely because there are no moving parts. For this reason I expect solid-state memory is a far more robust and resiliant format, which is better suited to in-the-field applications.

Memory Cards' diminutive size is also a major advantage as the media is less bulky to carry. It also means more of a compact camera's design can be dedicated to extra features and quality componentry. In the short to mid-term, the cost of storage and capacity limitations will detract from this technology and give DVD recordable and HDD solutions a window of opportunity. However, I also see that the still camera market is driving demand for solid-state memory and one can expect it to push the cost down (and capacity up) rather quickly.

As for hybridisation, I am not familiar with the complexities of mixing still capability with motion video as it pertains to lenses and CCDs but it seems to me that "progressive scanning" might be the way forward. Afterall, isn't progressively scanned video essentially the rapid succession of non-interlaced stills, running at 24, 25 or 30 (or even 50/60) frames per second?

Certainly the still and video camera markets are converging; it is evident in the increasing number of still cameras that offer limited video capabilities and video cameras that offer limited still-shot capabilities. I was under the impression that far from being a physical impossibility, satisfying both applications in the one unit (at least for domestic applications) was merely an engineering problem that was rapidly being overcome...

[Ray Austin]

Originally posted by Frank Marshall
Oh yes, this particular camera is a bit of a "toy," no-one is claiming any serious application for it. The Sanyo is squarely aimed at video amateurs but I think it's very exciting because of what this extraordinary little camera portends/predicts/suggests for the future of camera design.

Surely the absence of moving parts with solid-state memory is a major improvement on "traditional" mechanical storage methods, including the latest DVD recordable solutions and even mini-HDDs, precisely because there are no moving parts. For this reason I expect solid-state memory is a far more robust and resiliant format, which is better suited to in-the-field applications.

Memory Cards' diminutive size is also a major advantage as the media is less bulky to carry. It also means more of a compact camera's design can be dedicated to extra features and quality componentry.

I am glad we both agree this product is a "bit" of a toy as you put it.

It's a no brainer that solid state devices are alluring... no moving parts less chance of a break down etc. It would be entirely different if the memory device could hold more than an hour of video. I am obviously not saying that one day it won't happen, because it will one day be the "thing" to have.

With small form factor Hard drives we have the capability of going from camera to edit station by just plunking the hard drive to the edit bay. Even if the memory was large enough today you would still more than likely have to transfer it to something to edit.

If you could get 6hrs from a HDD and less than an hour on media I think it would be obvious which one you'd choose. Naturally each different kind of media has it's strenght and weaknesses.

There is no doubt that the still camera market is feeding the memory stick media market. I can easily remember having to pay upwards of $100 for 128mb ram for a stick and now can buy the same thing for under $70. But it's like anything else tho' too. I can remember when DVD first hit the shelves at around $50 a disk. Everything falls in price.

And there is truth in something that moves suffers the likelyhood that it will break in the future. However, there will always be something bigger, better and faster to replace the broken thing you now have. Even if it is solid state, doesn't mean it will never go obsolete. That lies strictly with the discretion of the manufacturers. Once something looses it's sellability it gets shelved and something better hopefully comes to replace it.

I think size should have little to do with it. Sure it's nice to have small things but at some point things get too small to be an effective device to use such as the camera in question.

[Hulk]

Have a look on ebay, 4GB Lexar 40X compact flash is selling for $840, new. Prices on this size CF have plummeted recently.

Besides never having to buy tape, you don't have to clean or repair the heads or tape transport mechanism. In addition, battery life be greatly improved. But, we've been through all this before.

The point is that 4GB at 8000mbps MPEG-2 I frame would yield over an hour of high quality editable video.

Prices are dropping on these sticks very quickly. When they get to $150 per 4GB stick, that would be 12GB for $450. This would be enough storage for an hour of DV. Finally, as the process technology shrinks for these sticks capacity will only increase.

It will be less than 5 years, a lot less.

Mark