Major Bug: Corel (Ulead) MPEG Smart Render Glitches

[Jerry Jones]

1. Insert a title over an MPEG clip;

2. Render out the timeline;

3. Playback the result;

4. Observe the ever-so-slight glitch in the video immediately *after* the title fades out or moves out of the picture.

It seems to be a bug associated with the I-frame creation at the end of the edit.

Hard to notice at first.

But it's there.

And it basically ruins one's MPEG content, in my opinion, and seems to negate the value of Corel's smart MPEG render technology.

Bummer.

Does anybody know if the same thing happens in Apple Final Cut Pro?

Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net

[Jerry Jones]

Others are experiencing the issue on Corel's Ulead forum:

http://phpbb.ulead.com.tw/EN/viewtopic.php?t=15084

Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net

[Jerry Jones]

I just did some experiments in Pinnacle Studio Ultimate 11.

Unfortunately, that software also re-encodes every frame of MPEG-2 source files.

This is shocking to me.

I have long read online news reports suggesting the Pinnacle software could perform "intelligent rendering" of MPEG-2 files, but not the new Pinnacle Studio Ultimate 11.

It re-encodes every frame!

And you can see the quality degradation when you play the original MPEG-2 file and then play the re-encoded MPEG-2 file.

So...

1. Corel VideoStudio 11 Plus doesn't work as hoped;

2. Sony Vegas Movie Studio Platinum Edition doesn't even try to perform smart MPEG rendering;

So two of the most popular consumer video editors on the PC side can't edit MPEG-2 as one might hope.

I wonder if Adobe Premiere Elements 4.0 -- expected this Fall -- will be worth a try.

?

Consumer video editing -- on the PC -- is still quite terrible, in my opinion.

Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net

[LvR]

Jerry

I know this to be fact:

Studio always re-render the audio - irrespective of source or destination mpeg stream characteristics. I have asked and asked and asked and none of the Pinnacle guys could justify that particular requirement yet they acknowledge that it happens by design.

As far as Studio's Smartrendering goes:

Its quite capable with Studio's own generated mpeg streams (captured files or files created by Studio itself getting used on the TL). I have also puked allover the show about Studio's inability to recognize non-Studio generated streams to be Smartrendered and as always got a big fat ignore on the issue - even if the source stream conforms to the Studio destination spec of the DVD

Again I have asked and asked and asked about the Smartrendering logic algorithms used to make a Samrtrendering decision when eg a mix of mpeg streams are encountered on the TL ........................ lots of mumbo-jumbo but no testable/demonstrable logic forthcoming from engineering - especially when I supplied example situations and what they explained will happen according to their logic never materialized in real life.

So yes - Smartrendering in Studio does work - under very specific conditions - so long as you don't want to use the app as a real frame-accurate video editor to consistently reproduce the exact same results.

In your particular case - what was the TL duration and stream specs you used and what was the DVD to be made's spec selected? .......................... just for giggles I would like to know.

[Jerry Jones]

That's interesting and very strange.

No, I didn't use MPEG-2 streams generated by Pinnacle Studio Ultimate.

I used MPEG-2 streams generated by VideoStudio 11 Plus.

I'll try using some Pinnacle-generated streams and see if that makes a difference.

But -- when one thinks about this -- there should be **no** difference.

Their own tech support folks have conceded -- after I posted this problem on their forum -- that the smart MPEG rendering is broken.

They've indicated that it has been reported to Pinnacle's engineering team for a fix.

To me, it's amazing that the non-linear video editing firms can't seem to understand that smart MPEG-2 rendering is -- indeed -- the "Holy Grail" of consumer video editing, especially now that there are so many SD and HD MPEG camcorders flooding the market.

This is ***THE*** feature we need (if it can be done properly).

Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net

As far as Studio's Smartrendering goes: Its quite capable with Studio's own generated mpeg streams (captured files or files created by Studio itself.

[Jerry Jones]

I just tried using the Pinnacle Studio Ultimate 11 software to capture from a mini DVD disc recorded in a Panasonic VDR-M30 DVD disc MPEG-2 camcorder.

The Pinnacle Studio Ultimate software pulls the MPEG-2 video off of the disc (although one segment of the video freezes because it has not been pulled off of the disc correctly).

When I insert the video into the Pinnacle timeline and then try a simple operation to write the file back out to my hard disk, the software seems to refuse to smart render the source MPEG, but it's possible I'm mistaken. Perhaps the Pinnacle software does do smart MPEG rendering, but more slowly than I've been used to in the Corel software.

I'll admit the properties of the Panasonic camcorder MPEG file are a little odd:

* NTSC drop frame (29.97 fps)
* MPEG files
* 24 bits, 704 x 480, 29.97 fps
* Upper Field First
* (DVD-NTSC), 4:3
* Video data rate: Variable (Max. 8800 kbps)
* Audio data rate: 256 kbps
* MPEG audio layer 2, 48 KHz, Stereo

The Panasonic VDR-M30 camcorder cannot be adjusted to record 720 x 480 frame size clips; it only supports the recording of clips with a 704 x 480 frame size.

But the Pinnacle Studio Ultimate software *does* allow me to choose "custom" output frame sizes.

Even so, when I choose 704 x 480 and match the other parameters and attempt to write the timeline to a file, the software seems to want to re-encode each and every frame of the video captured from the discs recorded in the Panasonic VDR-M30.

Maybe I'm asking for too much.

Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net

[LvR]

I believe in your specific case its a question of how Pinnacle is going to allow you to define what an acceptable mpeg2 stream for DVD is. (irrespective of what actually may be in the industry DVD spec)

They chose to only define a DVD contents res as 720x480 - and nothing else (for NTSC anyway).

The implication being that your 704x480 source simply cannot be Smartrendered because there is a conversion required to get to the only acceptable 720x480 res of Pinnacle's definition of what must go onto a DVD - hence your situation.

[Jerry Jones]

While 720 x 480 is most common, the 704 x 480 frame size is entirely legal as an industry-approved NTSC standard.

Moreover, Panasonic is a major camcorder manufacturer.

It's odd that Pinnacle Studio Ultimate 11 would support encoding a file to that resolution, but would not support burning such a file to a DVD.

Makes no sense.

Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net

I believe in your specific case its a question of how Pinnacle is going to allow you to define what an acceptable mpeg2 stream for DVD is. (irrespective of what actually may be in the industry DVD spec)

They chose to only define a DVD contents res as 720x480 - and nothing else (for NTSC anyway).

The implication being that your 704x480 source simply cannot be Smartrendered because there is a conversion required to get to the only acceptable 720x480 res of Pinnacle's definition of what must go onto a DVD - hence your situation.

[Jerry Jones]

Moreover, here's a link to the Pinnacle forum thread:

http://forums.pinnaclesys.com/forums/thread/22044.aspx

Pinnacle's "Glus (Nick)" -- a Pinnacle employee - confirms that smart MPEG rendering is broken in the Studio Ultimate 11 software:

Quote:
J Jones,
Thanks for the details. Indeed Minimal ("Smart") Rendering should apply in your case. Confirmed your findings in Studio 11.1 and Studio 10.8. Observed this also with SVCD, where Minimal Rendering was *definitely* working fine not too long ago! Entered a defect to our database: "Minimal Rendering fails for Mpeg Custom, SVCD"
Thanks!
Nick

As you can also read in the thread, one or two chaps claim they have it working.

But there's one thing that causes me a great deal of heartburn when working with software and it is what I call the "weird" factor where some individuals claim they have a feature working and others -- including Pinnacle's own tech support staff -- concede that it isn't working.

Pinnacle's own tech support staff -- as you can see -- concedes it's not working.

But perhaps it is; perhaps it is working more slowly than I'm used to.

Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net

[Jerry Jones]

Here are links to the technical documents about Apple's Final Cut Pro:

http://tinyurl.com/y8xvr5

A really good explanation of how Apple tackles long GOP editing is on page 20 of this PDF file:

http://tinyurl.com/y6hyzt

APPLE's senior director of pro video applications engineering, Brett Halle, affirms the native smart MPEG rendering approach.

His team measured PSNR (peak signal-to-noise ratio).

The native, smart MPEG rendering approach clearly outperformed transcoding to intraframe using the Apple Intermediate Codec.

Apple "iMovie HD" and Apple "Final Cut Express HD" are the lower cost consumer products that transcode HDV MPEG-2 using the Apple Intermediate Codec.

The more expensive Apple Final Cut Pro -- a component of Final Cut Studio -- supports native smart HDV MPEG-2 rendering.

If anybody has tried it, I'd love to hear a report about how well it works.

If one can insert titles and transitions and filters and then render the timeline to a file and then watch the file playback without distortions at the title, transition, and edit points, then I'd say Apple is the winner.

Anybody really tried this with Final Cut Pro... native editing of long GOP HDV MPEG-2???

How did it work for you???

Did you observe any glitches in your rendered output???

Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net

[Jerry Jones]

The Sony Vegas and Sony Vegas Movie Studio Platinum Edition approach is to...

1. allow the editor to edit transport stream HDV .M2T files in such a way that every frame is re-encoded (which results in quality loss);

...or...

2. allow the editor to wait for a long transcode of the HDV MPEG-2 long GOP stream to a wavelet Cineform codec format for editing, which is then transcoded again -- after editing -- back to long GOP MPEG-2 for distribution.

That's a lot of quality loss to accept in either case, but -- frankly -- if Pinnacle and Corel can't get smart MPEG rendering to work correctly, then transcoding is basically the only option left to the user.

Apple's more expensive Final Cut Pro product -- as I mentioned earlier allows for smart long GOP rendering.

But Apple's less-expensive "iMovie HD" and "Final Cut Express HD" products force the user to transcode long GOP HDV using the Apple Intermediate Codec.

So that's the same approach that Sony is offering.

The thing I hate about the transcoding approach is that it takes a long, long time to transcode source files using an intermediate codec and it take a lot of hard disk space.

So if one of the consumer-level programs could get smart MPEG long GOP editing to work correctly -- truly well -- then that would be perfect for me.

Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net

[Hulk]

I would think it unlikely for manufacturers to really work hard on SmartRendering technology. The vast majority of the user base for consumers aren't worried about things like that. I think it's more ease of use and "getting it done" quickly.

Yes, it's a shame that important things like SmartRendering aren't solid, working features in every NLE. It would be great if the engineers built the software first to do the important things right. Like SmartRendering, efficiently handling many file types, and fast previews, THEN worried about all of the nonsense they like to print on the side of the box.

[Jerry Jones]

Sadly, they probably don't even understand the concept of smart MPEG rendering.

If they did, they would certainly demand it.

Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net

The vast majority of the user base for consumers aren't worried about things like that.

[Hulk]

It's strange that there isn't more competition which is what usually drives the market. I mean there IS some competition in the semi-pro NLE field, but no one seems to really be getting it done right.

It must be tremendously expensive to develop, market, and support a NLE.

[LvR]

It's odd that Pinnacle Studio Ultimate 11 would support encoding a file to that resolution, but would not support burning such a file to a DVD.

Think you missed the point there.

I order to "encode a file" in that 704x480 res of yours in Studio you have to use a "custom" setting and not a "DVD" preset - yes we know that 704x480 is legal on a DVD, but as I said Pinnacle does not treat it as such (yet anyway).

As for you importing the file in that res from the Panasonic - Pinnacle re-encodes the audio to mpeg on import from DVD while stringing the mpeg streams in the vobs together - thats all that happens, so your res of 704x480 stays the same.

Try and actually capture (not import) in a "DVD quality" preset with Studio itself - if your TL is short enough to allow that bitrate to be used, then Smartrendering will (should) work and you can see that happening too (I do).

People saying that Smartrendeing is working from them on the Pinnacle forum will generally not be using non-Pinnacle-standard-def-of DVD-mpeg2-streams - hence my earlier comment "So yes - Smartrendering in Studio does work - under very specific conditions - so long as you don't want to use the app as a real frame-accurate video editor to consistently reproduce the exact same results." ............................. as you say - some of the people on that forum have no clue and no need/willingness to "rock-the-boat" so long as their particular work-flow is adequately catered for.