"Blu-ray Disc" vs. "HD DVD": Neither Is Winning

[Jerry Jones]

Mark,

APPLE TV 720p is 1280 horizontal by 720 vertical.

http://www.apple.com/appletv/specs.html

I've said all along that you're free to spend, spend, spend as you wish, Mark.

But your arguments somehow fail to persuade.

You seem to ignore published references and studies that often flatly contradict your strongly held assumptions and, oddly, you rarely document your positions with links to authoritative sources.

And you once went on record saying that you liked the "marketing" for Blu-ray over HD DVD simply because you thought the term Blu-ray sounded "cool."

We all agree 720p TV screens will eventually be replaced by 1080p displays.

But what I'm saying is this: the 720p/1080p TV screen difference isn't big enough to be important for most people.

And... as I usually do... I'll provide a link to an article that I believe backs me up:

http://www.hdtvexpert.com/pages_b/1080p_TheLastWord.html

HDTVs with 42-inch and smaller screens will probably look just as good with 720p or 768p resolution as they would with 1080p resolution. Even a 50-inch HDTV has a minimum viewing distance of about six feet for 1080p and just over eight feet for 768p. As of this writing, the “sweet spot” for HDTV sales ranges from 37 inches to 46 inches. With the viewing distance examples shown, there’s little advantage to spending extra money just to get more pixels on the screen. A 768p or 720p HDTV with a good internal deinterlacer and video scaler, coupled with a decent scaling DVD player like OPPO’s DV-981HD, should do the trick nicely.

What seems a little scary about your comments, Mark, is that some poor reader might actually come across them and believe that 1080p is absolutely a "requirement" -- as you put it -- and then spend about two to three times what is necessary to get a decent HD picture in the home and possibly even start down the road toward personal bankruptcy if your "shock jock" suggestions about 4K were to be taken seriously.

As I've stated many times, even standard definition DVD picture quality is fine as far as I'm concerned and as far as most people are concerned. I just feel the storage and convenience issues are going to weigh heavily in favor of digital downloads in the years to come and I would also agree with those who favor upscaling standard DVD players over "Blu-ray" or "HD DVD" players... per this article...

http://www.hdtvexpert.com/pages_b/ReallyNeed.html

It would be nice if we didn't live in the real world where budgets matter, Mark.

(And you might think it would be nice if we didn't live in a world where facts matter.)

But they do.

As far as I'm concerned, true 1080p (60 frames per second) would be nice if it actually existed.

It would be a great format for government organizations for use in projecting video/audio to large audiences.

But even if it were in widespread use, 1080/60p would probably be overkill for the living room.

720p -- for most of us -- is plenty good enough.

It would be one thing if you really were attempting to say that you "require" 1080p because of technical considerations.

But that message isn't what truly comes through.

The message that one often gets from your comments is that you think having a 1080p screen somehow lifts you above the pack because you own a TV with a bigger number stamped on it.

I don't want to believe that you intend to communicate something as juvenile as that.

But why is it that message is what always comes through?



Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net

[Hulk]

Jerry,

Forgot to mention.

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=DKUS,DKUS:2006-46,DKUS:en&q=red+one

$17k body only.

4k at 30fps
3k at 60fps
2k at 75fps

Welcome to the future.

Things are moving and shaking on the coasts baby!

[Sasq]

reminds me, hd on the atv went snuff, need to replace it
pity, lost a few movies along the way.

[Hulk]

Jerry,

Do you have a cell phone or would you rather not "fumble around with all that new technology."

I bet if you do have a cell phone you got a great deal on one of those WWII models with the back pack and the hand crank generator and all.

I can hear you now.

"Keep them itsy bitsy new fangled dang on cell phones if you want but my army surplus model does it all! And I can drop it or get it wet and the dang gun thing just a keeps workin and workin."

Good old Jerry cleaning the grease off the wheels of progress and replacing it with water in hopes that those wheels will rust to a stop.

Jerry - I've got a couple of perfectly good old tube TV's. If you pay the shipping I'll send them to you. Let me see I've got a 9 incher and a 13 incher...


You know another thing I can't stand is how they push those GPS units on us! What the hell was ever the problem with maps anyway right Jerry!

Anybody that buys a GPS is a fool wasting money.

[Hulk]

Mark,

I'll extend the same challenge to you.

Please post one link... just one... to any credible manufacturer or production firm doing genuine 1080/60p acquisition, editing, distribution.

It's been three (3) years since Randy Hoffner of ABC wrote this article:

http://www.tvtechnology.com/features/Tech-Corner/f_randy_hoffner.shtml

So do you think it's going to take another three (3) years before 1080/60p production/distribution will actually be a reality?

If so, are you content to spend a wad of cash on a 1080p screen just to watch the few Blu-ray Disc titles that are available in the 24 frames per second format?

That's your choice.

Doesn't seem worth it to me.

Currently, 1080p is "much ado about nothing."



Jerry Jones
http://www.jonesgroup.net

1080p is first about spatial resolution, not temporal.

60p provides smoother motion, not increased detail.

Whether it is 24p, 60p or a freakin' still frame it doesn't matter. I am seeing the increased resolution in ANY 1080p stream on my 1080p display.

Do you understand Jerry? I see the increased resolution right now. When I'm watching Blu-Rays, when I'm watching HD-DVDs, when I'm using the display as a monitor, when I'm viewing stills, and when I'm viewing any camcorder content that does full raster 1080p and that list is growing every day.

Get it? Maybe you're eyes aren't good enough to discern 1080p but mine are.

You want more? Okay here is more.

20/20 human vision can discern one minute of arc, or about 1/60 of a degree.

With a little simple trigonometry you can figure out the minimum viewing distance for a display. Any closer and you will be able to see individual pixels, thus taking away from the illusion of a continuous smooth image.

For a 52" 1080p display that minimum distance is 6.8 feet, for 52" 720p that distance is 10.1 feet. My preferred viewing distance is about 8 or 9 feet. I don't want to see pixels so I require 1080p.

I AM NOT going to refuse to move into the future because one Apple zealot is telling me that 720p is enough because the Apple TV can only do that. Actually 960 horizonatally right?

Jerry you can sit around and watch 320x240 resolution video and snicker to yourself about how all those fools are "wasting money on HD" while your "precious" 320x240 is more than anyone could want. We hates 1080p! We hates it, it burns us!!

Ha ha ha ha!

Enjoy living in the past and say hi to Dorothy for me since you're obviously living in the land of OZ!

[Jerry Jones]

Mark,

4K is already here.

So let's explore your dream.

1. A screen so big that you would have to build a living room the size of a football stadium.

2. Four or five truckloads of Blu-ray Disc movies tumbling out of your bookcases.

3. But since Blu-ray can't display 4K, you're already bored with all of those obsolete discs.

4. So you whip out your credit card and charge a 4K camera for your home movies:

http://www.dalsa.com/dc/

5. That causes your phone to ring too much and you have to sell the 4K camera and settle for one of these:

Arriflex D-20:

http://www.arri.com/prod/cam/d_20/d_20.htm

Panavision Genesis:

http://www.panavision.com/index.php

Sony CineAlta F-23:

http://bssc.sel.sony.com/BroadcastandBusiness/minisites/cinealta/shoot/f23.shtml

C'mon, Mark...

...all the way, Baby!

4K is here.

It's knocking on your door and it has your number.

Go for it.



Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net

1080p all the way baby. Or at least until we start seeing 4k coming around the bend.

[Jerry Jones]

Yes, but when you buy DVDs -- and I've gone down this road already myself -- you must put them somewhere.

You have to physically store them.

When your collection grows big -- as mine has -- you suddenly realize the folly of optical discs.

Because they're literally occupying the entire living room.

I won't be repeating this foolishness with high definition because all of my purchased movies will reside on a hard disk.

In addition, when I exercise, I like a small music playback device.

So an iPod just works for that purpose... much better than a CD or DVD player.

And I can also use the iPod to watch movies and TV shows, too.

And the same digital file can be played on the Apple TV through my music system in the living room.

The Apple digital file paradigm shift is major.

...and now a new column...

"Seven Reasons To Forget Blu-ray"

Link: http://www.usnews.com/blogs/daves-do...t-blu-ray.html



Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net

[Mehen]

1. I don't rent movies anymore, I buy them.
2. If I started downloading movies, know what I would do with them? Want to burn them to disc!
3. Bandwidth, bandwidth, bandwidth.
4. The 1080p/720p price gap is shrinking.
5. I can by low-cost versions too - they are called DVDs.
6. I can lend out or borrow discs. Or take them to friends houses.
7. I CAN GO ON THE INTERNET TO WATCH TRAILERS.

[Jerry Jones]

Well, it appears Sony's new F-23 CineAlta model here...

http://bssc.sel.sony.com/BroadcastandBusiness/minisites/cinealta/shoot/f23.shtml

...can actually acquire 1080/60p...

...and if you buy an optional SRW-1 HDCAM SR...

...you can actually *record* 1080/60p.

(Although that appears to be true only since the 3rd quarter of last year, according to the Sony FAQ.)

The recorder alone is supposed to cost more than $50,000 and the cost of the camera is so sky high that it will be quite some time, in my view, perhaps years, before we actually see any "Blu-ray Discs" with content shot in that 1080/60p format.

It's overkill, but it should be able to produce some amazing images... no doubt about that.

Even so, I don't think it's worth spending a huge sum, at this point, on a 1080p TV.



Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net

[Jerry Jones]

Another huge advantage of Apple TV is that it will allow you to stream all of the photos on your hard disk to your TV:

http://www.apple.com/appletv/

No need to go through the steps of creating a DVD.

You just turn on your computer, your TV, and plug-in your Apple TV.

And Apple TV does support 1080p output.



Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net

[Jerry Jones]

Mark,

I'll extend the same challenge to you.

Please post one link... just one... to any credible manufacturer or production firm doing genuine 1080/60p acquisition, editing, distribution.

It's been three (3) years since Randy Hoffner of ABC wrote this article:

http://www.tvtechnology.com/features/Tech-Corner/f_randy_hoffner.shtml

What 1080/60p native signals are available for display on these visually stunning 1080/60p displays? We are told that the PlayStation 3 console will have a 1080p output with games released on Blu-ray discs. We are also told that there are 1080p movie trailers available on the Internet. But wait! These started life as 24fps film, so are they really 60fps? In sum, the resolution capabilities of advanced displays have caught up to the resolution of the 1920 x 1080/60p HD scanning format, but it will be a while before there is much native 1080/60p material available for viewing.

So do you think it's going to take another three (3) years before 1080/60p production/distribution will actually be a reality?

If so, are you content to spend a wad of cash on a 1080p screen just to watch the few Blu-ray Disc titles that are available in the 24 frames per second format?

That's your choice.

Doesn't seem worth it to me.

Currently, 1080p is "much ado about nothing."



Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net

1080p all the way baby.

[Jerry Jones]

There are also practical disadvantages to renting Blu-ray as opposed to renting Apple TV 720p high definition movies.

1. With Apple TV, you don't have to bother with returning a Blu-ray Disc.

2. With Apple TV, you can view a trailer prior to renting the film as a means of finding out if the movie would truly be worthwhile to watch.

3. With Apple TV, you have the benefit of doing many things that you just can't do with a Blu-ray Disc such as buy low-cost SD versions of both films and TV shows that can be viewed not only on your TV, but also on your laptop computer when you travel or on your iPhone or iPod. So it's much more versatile.

4. With Apple TV, you can browse literally thousands of video and audio podcasts and many of those are absolutely free.

5. with Apple TV, you can watch YouTube videos on your TV.



Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net

[Hulk]

nobody here has argued that 1080i was good, it is 1080P which is being discussed... your arguments are waaay off... again.

Exactly.

1080p all the way baby. Or at least until we start seeing 4k coming around the bend.

Strange how Jerry pushes the technology of streaming video with one hand and with the other hand he has the brakes on 1080p!

Jerry you really you need to do some credible research. Please go out an buy "Digital Video and HDTV Algorithms and Interfacts" by Poynton. It is THE bible for HDTV. It's a little technical but I'd think it would clear a lot of things up for you.

[Jerry Jones]

Tjalfe,

I've never said otherwise.

Movies are shot at 24 frames per second.

However... and this is the point you miss... sports and other action-oriented programming *is* acquired with cameras that only support up to 1280 x 720 at 60 progressive frames per second!

So why on earth are you trying to convince me to spend an extra wad of cash on a 1080p TV set when I can buy a top-of-the-line 720p set for less money and still get the benefit of the only 60-frames-per-second sports and action-oriented format/programming available??

Spending an extra wad of cash on a 1080p set just to watch 24 frames-per-second 1080 format hollywood stuff doesn't excite me as much as it seems to excite you. I'm into reality (and value).



Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net

Movies are NOT shot in 720P/60FPS, even if the cameras exist. Taking the 24FPS film, scanning to eiher 720P or 1080P, the heigher resolution will look better.

[Tjalfe]

Movies are NOT shot in 720P/60FPS, even if the cameras exist. Taking the 24FPS film, scanning to eiher 720P or 1080P, the heigher resolution will look better.