Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

"Blu-ray Disc" vs. "HD DVD": Neither Is Winning

Collapse
This topic is closed.
X
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Jerry,

    Ah ha. Not only do you admit to watching the "dead" format of optical discs. But you even go so far as to state that some of your optical disc movies aren't even available on HD disc. Does this mean you can't stream these movies? I don't get it you say discs are dead but you are holding them? Do you mean that they're "almost dead" but not quite? Even more amazing is the fact that you admit that you can't stream them otherwise you would sell the discs right?

    As I've been saying for about 100 plus posts now many people are getting good use out of HD-DVD and Blu-Rays on a day-to-day basis, right now, while we wait for a more full featured streaming network solution. I've been watching 2 HD optical rental disc per week from Netflix since I got up HTPC up and running two months ago. It has already been worth it for me.

    And I wasn't bragging about my 1080p TV, only stating how HD optical discs look great on a monitor that natively supports them. You see Blu-Rays will often have bit rate peaks at 30Mbps or more.

    I am very frugal with my money. My last "large" screen TV was a JVC 32" model purchased in 1998! This was a BIG purchase for me and I investigated the market for over a year.

    As far as 1080p being "BS." For some people yes. I don't like to make blanket generalizations like that. You see I needed 1080p because since I'm using it as a HTPC monitor it's really nice to have that extra resolution for computer work. In addition in a 52" size I believe with good 1080p content you can see a difference in resolution during video playback. But 720p is fantastic too. I believe that the industry is still working on making each of those 1080p pixels count. They're doing it better with 720p. And we all know that SD is at the pinnacle of it's evolution. I plan to have this TV for a number of years and would like to be able to "grow into" the 1080p content as it gets better and better.

    I'm in between video cameras at the moment. I am very interested in large RGB CMOS cameras like the Red One but at $17k for body only it's way out of my budget. These large single RGB CMOS cameras look to be very promising. They operate much like digital SLRs in many cases, sometimes recording a RAW format that is "developed" in the NLE. Pretty neat since all you need get right when shooting is focus and exposure. All else occurs in the NLE. Very natural workflow if you're used to using a dSLR.

    In addition the large sensors, not using Bayer filters, have better light sensitivity due to less photosite filtering, and the large size of the filters. They also have color accuracy on par with 3 sensor cameras since there is no color interpolation as with Bayer. Lattitude is nearly as good as film. And the large sensors allow for shallow depth of field. Yes I have a feeling the prices on this technology will plummet in the near future.

    Jerry you know I have a strong dislike of interlaced cameras in this age of natively progressive display devices. I also don't like to deal with pulldown to get framerates. And I also like full raster formats. I'm having hard time finding a camera that fits my bill within my budget. It's generally known that current 3 CCD cameras (1/3" sensors) are about 2 or 3 stops short of film lattitude. I am leaning toward single RGB CMOS cameras like the Sony V1, but that's an expensive one too!
    - Mark

    Core 2 Duo E6400 o/c 3.2GHz - Asus P5B Deluxe - 2048MB Corsair Twinx 6400C4 - ATI AIW X1900 - Seagate 7200.10 SATA 320GB primary - Western Digital SE16 SATA 320GB secondary - Samsung SATA Lightscribe DVD/CDRW- Midiland 4100 Speakers - Presonus Firepod - Dell FP2001 20" LCD - Windows XP Home

    Comment


    • I just got my new Apple TV!!!

      (Setting it up now.)

      Mark, to answer your question about my use of standard definition optical discs.

      Yes, I use them once in awhile, but they're really old fashioned.

      Why?

      I won't be buying any more of them unless I can't find the content on Apple TV.

      The reason is lack of space in my home.

      I have so many standard definition hollywood film DVDs, I barely have room to store them and organize them and it's a real pain.

      There is absolutely no way I'm going down the physical spinning disc path again for high definition.

      They take up too much space and I am just not as enthralled as you are about 1080p.

      (I think you and many other consumers may be suffering from pixel envy.)

      I believe content and good production values trump raw resolution every time.

      In other words, a great film on standard definition DVD is far more entertaining to me than watching the home vacation video of the guy next door who bought a brand new shiny 1080p top-of-the-line high definition camcorder.

      Anyway, my new Apple TV is tiny... I was so surprised to open the box and see how small it is and this pleases me.

      Now I can buy media via the Apple iTunes store and manage it much more efficiently on my Mac hard drives where it won't consume physical space.

      Go ahead and load up on those Blu-ray Discs, Mark.

      Buy a truck load of them.



      Jerry Jones

      Comment


      • By the way, I got the low-cost Apple TV... the $229 model.

        Plan to store content on my computer hard disks.

        Then transfer via iTunes to the Apple TV hard disk when needed.

        With my 802.11g wireless network, I suspect I'll be able to stream quite a bit of content without need for any transfer at all.



        Jerry Jones

        Comment


        • Review to follow.

          Jerry Jones

          Comment


          • OK, here's a preliminary review.

            Setup of the Apple TV is a breeze.

            I just played an entire episode of Star Trek (from the original series).

            I bought this episode a few months ago from the Apple iTunes store.

            So the file resides on a computer hard disk.

            It's MPEG-4 and I was under the impression that it could not be smoothly streamed using my older 802.11g wireless network.

            Well, it can.

            It played perfectly.

            Not one stutter.

            So I'm gaining confidence that it is possible to perfectly stream standard definition video from the iTunes store using an older 802.11g wireless network.

            Sure it would be better to have the newer 802.11n wireless network.

            But it would seem that 802.11g will work for all kinds of different things.

            So far, I've tested the following.

            1. Star Trek (Where No Man Has Gone Before)

            This digital file resides on the system drive of a computer and I streamed it -- live -- to the Apple TV, which is connected to a TV, and the entire episode played without a single glitch.

            2. YouTube

            I can stream YouTube videos without any stutters to the TV. The Apple TV features many of the same functions that you find on the YouTube Web site. For example, you can search for any YouTube video -- via the Apple TV -- using an alphabetic search function. The Apple TV comes with a remote control that lets you browse through a very well designed on-screen menu.

            3. Music

            I've been able to stream -- live -- any Apple iTunes purchased music.

            4. Photos

            I've been able to stream any photo on my computer -- live -- to the TV.

            5. Podcasts

            I'm listening to NPR (National Public Radio) right now via the Apple TV.

            This is a reasonably priced device; it costs less than many standard and high definition dvd players and it works exceptionally well. There's really no need to buy an Apple TV with a huge hard disk because wireless networks let you store content on any hard disk in the house.

            I think APPLE TV is going to sell like crazy in the months ahead (unless the economy goes into the toilet).



            Jerry Jones

            Comment


            • Now that the format war is (almost)over, I am champing at the bit to get a blu ray player (ps3) like a lot of other people. (yeah I think beta was better then vhs, so I was uncomitted this time)

              I have had a HTPC since before they had name for them(it was just a computer in the lounge room back then), but I still prefer to buy actual disks.
              And I have always had a decent (for here anyway)internet connection, but still I only download movies if I can't by the disks or I just want to check it out first.

              In theory I am the type of person who should be embracing online content, but the truth is I am a long way from trusting the medium and its providers.

              But just think about the people who just don't want or have a decent internet connection, or the least technically minded who want to own a physical disk, heck what kind of gift is a voucher to download a movie....bleh, People still want disks

              The fact that Blu ray is pretty much the best backup/storage device available means drives and dvr will be common place anyway , so would you not buy blu-ray movies.

              Online will takeover over "eventually" but Blu ray is going to "win" for a quite while first

              PS I bet a lot of people will be backing up there downloaded HD content on to blu-dusks

              PPS Disco is not dead

              Comment


              • "I won't be buying any more of them unless I can't find the content on Apple TV."

                Amen Jerry. Took a while to finally admit that. We are in agreement.


                "(I think you and many other consumers may be suffering from pixel envy.)"

                Not at all Jerry just ask my wife


                "I believe content and good production values trump raw resolution every time."

                I agree. I'd rather watch a 4th generation Classic Star Trek dub over the neighbors home movie shot with a Panavision Genesis camera.



                "Go ahead and load up on those Blu-ray Discs, Mark."

                Like I said a million times I'm renting them from Netflix. When you "open" up your account to all three media types (no cost option) there is a drop down box in your queue if the movie is available in other formats. If it available in HD I select it.


                1080p looks to be the future Jerry. Like I stated before I am using this TV as a computer monitor and I wanted to future proof it. Just like optical discs vs streaming that doesn't mean that 720p is dead as disco. There isn't a lot of media right now that really benefits that much from the extra resolution so I would have to say that you can get a great deal on a 720p set and get a better bang for your buck. No argument there.

                I'm glad your enjoying the Apple TV. I'm absolutely loving my $479 HTPC that does everything without breaking a sweat. I'm typing from it right now. Earlier tonight we were watching (streaming) an episode of "Heroes" from Netflix. Then we watched a rental Blu-Ray disc from Netflix. And as I said I'm typing on it now. Oh yeah I'm also compressing some video... The Apple TV definitely has an audience but for some people a more open and powerfull while still inexpensive tool may be the better choice. As always people should be informed of all the options. The Apple TV woudl be seriously limiting for me for my main system, but maybe for a smaller TV somewhere around the house like a bedroom or something.

                Hopefully HD-DVD will hang around a while to at least keep BR prices down a bit.
                - Mark

                Core 2 Duo E6400 o/c 3.2GHz - Asus P5B Deluxe - 2048MB Corsair Twinx 6400C4 - ATI AIW X1900 - Seagate 7200.10 SATA 320GB primary - Western Digital SE16 SATA 320GB secondary - Samsung SATA Lightscribe DVD/CDRW- Midiland 4100 Speakers - Presonus Firepod - Dell FP2001 20" LCD - Windows XP Home

                Comment


                • Jerry,

                  I forgot to mention how do you get 5.1 sound out of the Apple TV? With my HTPC I just connect the SPDI/F out from the motherboard into the coaxial digital in on the sourround receiver. I use the second optical digital in on the surround receiver for the cable box and BAM both the HTPC and the cable box do 5.1 surround. Clean and simple.
                  - Mark

                  Core 2 Duo E6400 o/c 3.2GHz - Asus P5B Deluxe - 2048MB Corsair Twinx 6400C4 - ATI AIW X1900 - Seagate 7200.10 SATA 320GB primary - Western Digital SE16 SATA 320GB secondary - Samsung SATA Lightscribe DVD/CDRW- Midiland 4100 Speakers - Presonus Firepod - Dell FP2001 20" LCD - Windows XP Home

                  Comment


                  • There's no "admission" there, Mark.

                    Are you attempting to make a point?

                    If so, it's not making any sense to me.

                    My argument about optical discs being obsolete remains the same.

                    So I'm not sure what you mean by "admission."

                    That seems to be somewhat weird logic because the fact that I still watch standard definition DVDs has nothing to do with my argument that high definition DVDs are *utterly* obsolete.

                    They are two different technologies introduced under different circumstances.

                    And your analogy fails.

                    Standard definition DVDs were, in my opinion, quite late in getting out to the consumer.

                    That's especially true for consumer-recordable standard definition DVDs.

                    (And I realize I'm using that term "standard definition" here loosely because it is possible to burn high definition video to ordinary DVDs.)

                    Those of us who have been shooting video for years had to wait and wait and wait and when the standard definition DVD players and writers finally -- finally -- did arrive, they were slow and didn't work well and bandwidth was too constricted for the Internet to be a factor.

                    Over the years, I've probably been forced to buy at least three standard definition DVD players to finally get the functionality I sought.

                    So standard definition DVDs are still being used; but there are signs that sales are slowing down.

                    The high definition DVDs were what Sony and Panasonic had hoped would keep sales going, but it won't work because we now have broadband and that is changing the entire ballgame.

                    I just looked at some 720p previews that you can watch on the Apple TV.

                    They look fantastic... as good as the high definition broadcasts that I see from PBS.

                    Do you really think, Mark, that 1080p is the future?

                    I think that's pretty funny right now.

                    You are the one who has been arguing until you have turned blue-in-the-face that nobody can watch high definition films "now" via Web downloads.

                    Remember how you kept asking that earlier in this thread?

                    Well, Mark, you have to admit you've been wrong since the beginning of this thread.

                    But -- within the past week -- APPLE has begun offering 720p high definition movies from all of the major studios via iTunes (downloads) and your statement -- which can be read by anybody who wishes to go back to the beginning of this thread -- now seems ridiculously funny because anybody with an Apple TV can now rent high definition 720p films via the Internet (in the USA).

                    But let's go back to your statement that 1080p is the future.

                    Is it, Mark?

                    Well, then...

                    How long will we have to wait?

                    I ask that key question because -- did you happen to know -- there is no 1080p broadcast standard in the United States that supports a full 60 frames per second?

                    The ATSC standard only supports 1080p at 24 and 30 frames per second.

                    So now I'm going to turn the tables on you, Mark, because you were the one who earlier in this thread was asking repeatedly "where are the high definition downloads?" -- remember?

                    Now I'm going to ask you... "where are the 1080/60p broadcasts?"

                    Where, Mark?

                    I want to see them now.

                    Not five years from now.

                    Not ten years from now.

                    I want to see them now!

                    And I don't want to have to buy expensive Blu-ray Discs or expensive Blu-ray Disc players from Sony and Panasonic to see 1080/60p.

                    I want to see that 1080/60p -- live -- from my over-the-air TV.

                    Live sports, Baby!

                    Now!

                    Remember your own words along these same lines... earlier in this thread?

                    (OK, I'm being sarcastic, but I think I've made my point.)

                    Actually, 720p is the future.

                    I'll define that more precisely.

                    The 720p format is the most logical format for the *near* future.

                    You're going to be waiting a long, long time to "grow into" that 1080p format, Mark.

                    The current United States ATSC broadcast standard supports 720p at all critical frame rates, including 60 frames per second.

                    This is why ABC and ESPN have adopted 720p for live sports.

                    Now, some consumer camcorders are coming out that will support 1080/60p, which should make that format available -- drum roll -- via downloads, but it's going to be a hoot to see which computers will be able to even play it.

                    The 1080p that we'll be seeing from Hollywood will mostly be 1080 @ 24 frames per second.

                    I'm sure it'll look pretty good for certain types of subject matter, but it should be interesting to see what happens when fast action is being recorded.

                    And then there's the bandwidth/processor power issue all over again.

                    I'll stick with 720p for the next five years and wait for the hardware to get sufficiently powerful to make 1080p something other than a consumer marketing ploy.

                    You asked about the Dolby 5.1 audio.

                    The Apple TV has the connections you can see on this Web page:



                    They include an OPTICAL audio connector.

                    Jerry Jones


                    Originally posted by Hulk View Post
                    Took a while to finally admit that.

                    Comment


                    • "HD DVD" and "Blu-ray Disc" are as dead as DISC-o.

                      Hard drives are cheap; they beat optical.

                      Online has already begun to take over.

                      Go check out the iTunes sales.

                      Compare them to "HD DVD" and "Blu-ray Disc" *combined.*



                      Jerry Jones


                      Originally posted by Marshmallowman View Post
                      The fact that Blu ray is pretty much the best backup/storage device available means drives and dvr will be common place anyway , so would you not buy blu-ray movies. Online will takeover over "eventually"

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Jerry Jones View Post
                        The high definition DVDs were what Sony and Panasonic had hoped would keep sales going, but it won't work because we now have broadband and that is changing the entire ballgame.
                        This is where you are being thick, Jerry. Nearly 90% of the world's population does NOT have broadband, nor do they have the means to do so. Furthermore, at least 75% of those who do have broadband are restricted to a peak bandwidth of 1 Mbit/s or less, which is totally inadequate for downloading video (maybe just good enough for YouTube on a good day!). So the number of users with the technical possibility of downloading video is far too small for it to become mainstream, in the foreseeable future.

                        Where my daughter has her school in Switzerland, just outside a large city, she has to be satisfied with ISDN DUN, as there is no cable in the building and she is outside the ADSL radius. She has cable at home (50 m away) but no ADSL and the cable service limits her to 500 kbit/s (constant, though, at full speed). Where I live, I'm limited to 1 Mbit/s but it is only fairly recently that this happened - before that, I was on 56 kbit/s (theoretically) DUN, as are still many parts of this country. I have a friend (a DSc) living in Hyderabad, a city with several million inhabitants. The best he can get at either home or work (a major Indian research Institute) is 28 kbit/s DUN. As for virtually the whole of the African continent...
                        Brian (the devil incarnate)

                        Comment


                        • less than 20 miles form the centre of Paris, and I can only get 1.6Mbps.

                          At least I don't have to pause youtube and Google video clips now, I can watch them as they stream, albeit one at a time...

                          And Jerry, you forgot to mention about HD DISC RENTALS.
                          My local video rental place doesn't have ANY HD content yet.

                          There are a few HD TV channels here, but they are over the ADSL, and I don't have the bandwidth.
                          I also don't have an HD Satellite box....

                          I'll have to have a chat with the Video store owner to see if, ever, he will be getting HD discs...
                          PC-1 Fractal Design Arc Mini R2, 3800X, Asus B450M-PRO mATX, 2x8GB B-die@3800C16, AMD Vega64, Seasonic 850W Gold, Black Ice Nemesis/Laing DDC/EKWB 240 Loop (VRM>CPU>GPU), Noctua Fans.
                          Nas : i3/itx/2x4GB/8x4TB BTRFS/Raid6 (7 + Hotspare) Xpenology
                          +++ : FSP Nano 800VA (Pi's+switch) + 1600VA (PC-1+Nas)

                          Comment


                          • Brian,

                            I believe broadband will be rolling out globally more quickly than you might think.



                            Jerry Jones


                            Originally posted by Brian Ellis View Post
                            This is where you are being thick, Jerry. Nearly 90% of the world's population does NOT have broadband, nor do they have the means to do so. Furthermore, at least 75% of those who do have broadband are restricted to a peak bandwidth of 1 Mbit/s or less, which is totally inadequate for downloading video (maybe just good enough for YouTube on a good day!). So the number of users with the technical possibility of downloading video is far too small for it to become mainstream, in the foreseeable future.

                            Where my daughter has her school in Switzerland, just outside a large city, she has to be satisfied with ISDN DUN, as there is no cable in the building and she is outside the ADSL radius. She has cable at home (50 m away) but no ADSL and the cable service limits her to 500 kbit/s (constant, though, at full speed). Where I live, I'm limited to 1 Mbit/s but it is only fairly recently that this happened - before that, I was on 56 kbit/s (theoretically) DUN, as are still many parts of this country. I have a friend (a DSc) living in Hyderabad, a city with several million inhabitants. The best he can get at either home or work (a major Indian research Institute) is 28 kbit/s DUN. As for virtually the whole of the African continent...

                            Comment


                            • And why should the ISPs in developing nations make the investment, when 90% of the population don't even have telephone lines yet? And why should those of the developed nations do so when it is so costly? Just to bolster your arguments? I had a chat with the technical director of Cytanet the other day. They prefer to give the priority to quasi-100% coverage to the outlying villages at 1 Mbit/s than to up the performance, even in the cities. This will take them to 2012 to finish the coverage. And the last km or two will be in copper until at least 2015. The same goes for many developed countries. Even the USA has broadband coverage to only a minority of subscribers, even if S. Korea does better.

                              Dream on, Jerry...
                              Brian (the devil incarnate)

                              Comment


                              • Brian,

                                I see at least three reasons for relatively fast global expansion of broadband:

                                1. Consumer demand;

                                2. Profit motive of broadband providers;

                                3. Profit motive of Hollywood and other film centers.



                                Jerry Jones


                                Originally posted by Brian Ellis View Post
                                And why should the ISPs in developing nations make the investment, when 90% of the population don't even have telephone lines yet? And why should those of the developed nations do so when it is so costly? Just to bolster your arguments? I had a chat with the technical director of Cytanet the other day. They prefer to give the priority to quasi-100% coverage to the outlying villages at 1 Mbit/s than to up the performance, even in the cities. This will take them to 2012 to finish the coverage. And the last km or two will be in copper until at least 2015. The same goes for many developed countries. Even the USA has broadband coverage to only a minority of subscribers, even if S. Korea does better.

                                Dream on, Jerry...

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X