"Blu-ray Disc" vs. "HD DVD": Neither Is Winning

[Elie]

Yes thanks to Jerry

[paulw]

Just to keep things going

"Blu-ray Will Defeat Digital Downloads"

http://www.tvpredictions.com/forum/comments.php?y=08&m=02&entry=entry080220-060526

"It will be years -- yes, years -- before downloads replace hard discs (be it Blu-ray or standard-def DVDs) and here's why:"

[Hulk]

Jerry, Jerry, Jerry

"There you go again" (quote from a US President)

First of all I thought Blu-Ray was/is the better format due primarily to it's higher native storage capacity per layer. The name sounding "cooler" was said in jest. Please my friend, try and keep your sense of humor throughout our tumultuous and cantankerous diatribe.

Second, the minimum viewing distance should have been a recommendation. Yes I'll admit that. I don't want to force anyone to buy anything they don't need. You keep challenging me that I'm wasting money on a 1080p set. Please keep in mind that calculated minimum distance is but ONE of the reasons I went 1080p.

If you have a look at the displays in the 50" range you will see a vast majority of them are 1080p. And I think at this point every single 52" LCD is a 1080p display. So you see I wanted an LCD for various reasons (good as a computer monitor, no burn in, and quite energy efficient) so my choices were pretty much restricted to 1080p in the 52" LCD territory.

For sizes perhaps 42" or less I don't think 1080p is necessary at all. The screen is simply too small to get much benefit out of it unless you are doing a lot of computer work on it. Or perhaps even using it as a computer monitor.

See? I'm not unreasonable. 1080p at sizes over 50" really does start to make sense in my opinion due to reaching limits of human vision as I stated above and the fact that just about everything on the market in the really big sizes is 1080p. As the manufacturers gear up prices of course continue to plummet. Plus there is plenty of HD-DVD and Blu-Ray 1080p content available, and more Blu-Ray coming every day. You just can't keep a good man (blue laser disc) down can you?

Now you my rambunctious rival have failed to mention I was right about 1080p being primarilty a spatial issue not temporal. You can see the benefits of 1080/24p. 60p is not required. Quite convenient how you skipped that, no? You see I did say I agreed with you about "recommended" viewing distances and the fact that for smaller sets 720p is all you need.

In addition I pointed out the 4k capable $17k body only Red One camera.

Finally as for your "linked" sources. People will make their own observations regarding my posts. I like to think that I do have some technical background and I will defend any technical information I have posted. Opinions are of course opinions and generally only worth the electrons used to create them.

Anyway it's about 50 posts since I've rounded you in Jerry. And I know the fans are in need of an official "Jerry Summary."

What is your point again? Besides Apple is the best and whatever Apple sells is "all you need." And of course since Apple doesn't sell and market optical discs everyone must stay away from them and not use them because you say they are dead.

Oh yeah Jerry this thread has been going on for what 6 months or something like that? I've been using optical discs all the while. If they are so dead why am I still using/renting them?

[Hulk]

Just to keep things going

"Blu-ray Will Defeat Digital Downloads"

http://www.tvpredictions.com/forum/comments.php?y=08&m=02&entry=entry080220-060526

"It will be years -- yes, years -- before downloads replace hard discs (be it Blu-ray or standard-def DVDs) and here's why:"

Another guy that "gets it." It'll be years.

[Jerry Jones]

My point, Mark?

My point is that "HD DVD" and "Blu-ray Disc" are both as dead as DISC-o.

Clearly, you have implied that Sony's "Blu-ray" disc, in your opinion, is the only viable option for videophiles who appreciate top quality because -- apparently -- you are under the impression that 1080p can only be provided by Blu-ray.

Not true, Mark.

1080p at your beloved 24 frames per second is available via download.

I have the Apple TV because I like the software and I generally have faith in Apple products.

But the Apple TV product is not the only product that allows consumers to enjoy movies in high definition, Mark.

There's also Vudu, for example.

Did you know that 1080/24p movies are now available for download via Vudu?

Anybody who has been reading this thread can go back to the beginning and read your posts, including the posts wherein you claimed there was "no high definition" to be had via download services.

Well, look at what a huge difference just a few weeks has made.

You have been repeatedly repudiated by the multiple online content vendors that have been steadily ramping up.

We now have an explosion of high definition movie content available via download.

And the Vudu product allows people to download your beloved 1080/24p format!

That's right, Mark.

1080/24p... your "1080p all the way" format... it's now available via download.

As usual, I can back up my claim.

Read the HDTV Magazine review at the following link...

http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/columns/2008/02/showdown_apple_tv_vs_vudu.php

The reviewer, Shane Sturgeon, compares Apple TV to Vudu.

So while I still prefer Apple, I also believe services such as Vudu might offer the extra quality that some people might "require."

Some noteworthy comments about Vudu's standard and high definition movies from Mr. Sturgeon:

The video quality was excellent, even for SD fare. All of their content is encoded at 24 fps. SD video is 480p/24 and encoded with H.264 Main Profile while all HD content is 1080p/24 encoded with H.264 High Profile. In all honesty, when I first began testing the unit with SD programming back in November, it was not obvious to me that what I was watching wasn't HD. I've looked at all the major players in the movie download market, and the quality they (Vudu) are getting with their SD video is unsurpassed. And the quality of their HD content rivals that of packaged media...

I thought this was also noteworthy:

As advertised, their (Vudu's) content begins playing immediately. Even for HD content, all that is needed is a 4 Mbps connection to be able to watch HD content instantly. If you'd like to give your ISP a test drive and see if you'd be able to watch instantly, VUDU has a speed test that will rate your connection throughput.

My point, Mark?

My point is that "HD DVD" and "Blu-ray Disc" are *both* as dead as DISC-o.



Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net

[Jerry Jones]

http://www.vudu.com/

Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net

[Jerry Jones]

But 60p *is* required if you want the best.

Your point all along has been that you have the best.

Well, if you're only able to watch 1080/24p, then you're not really seeing the so-called "Full HD" that is the marketing buzzword used in the stores to sell 1080p merchandise.

The problem with 1080/24p is that it's really only appropriate for film content.

There are many types of events... sporting events, for example... that would look far better if recorded in 1080 at a full 60 frames per second (1080/60p).

So if you happen to be a sports fan who does *not* care about Hollywood films, but *does* care about sports programming, then there's not going to be much benefit realized by the purchase of a 1080p TV... at *any* viewing distance... because -- as I've demonstrated with numerous links earlier in this thread -- the American sports networks are shooting sports with 720/60p format cameras.

Yesterday, I got curious and looked around on some discount store Web sites and they're still keeping the prices high for 1080p HDTVs -- even with the cheaper brands that don't feature the best internal processing.

So -- in some circumstances -- it might make more sense for sports fans to consider a 720p HDTV from one of the top manufacturers as these HDTVs can be had for less money with top quality internal processing/components.



Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net

You can see the benefits of 1080/24p. 60p is not required.

[Elie]

I agree with Paul, we're not even remotely prepared for downloads yet, it'll take years and years!

Disc media all the way

[Jerry Jones]

You may wish to stop downloads from happening, Elie, but -- obviously -- it's just going like gangbusters now; the genie is out of the bottle and there's no putting it back in:

1. Apple TV

http://www.apple.com/appletv

2. Vongo.com

http://www.vongo.com/

3. Xbox 360 LIVE Marketplace:

http://www.xbox.com/en-US/live/marketplace/moviestv/

4. GUBA:

http://www.guba.com

5. VUDU:

http://www.vudu.com

6. AxiomTV:

http://www.axiom.tv/

7. Akamai:

http://www.thehdweb.com/

8. Movielink:

http://www.movielink.com

9. Amazon unbox:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/video/help/faq.html/104-0508629-0067901?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-1&pf_rd_r=0KF7QXH1GPVWAK9GXS00&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=298517001&pf_rd_i=16261631

10. FANFARE:

http://www.sandisk.com/fanfare/intro/

11. FiOS TV:

http://www22.verizon.com/content/fiostv

12. AT&T U-verse TV:

https://uverse1.att.com/un/launchAMSS.do

13. TiVo HD:

http://www.tivo.com/whatistivo/tivohd/index.html

14. Joost:

http://www.joost.com/

15. hulu:

http://www.hulu.com/

16. Veoh Networks:

http://www.veoh.com/

Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net

it'll take years and years!

[dZeus]

I agree with Paul, we're not even remotely prepared for downloads yet, it'll take years and years!

Disc media all the way

you mean, all these people everywhere on the world downloading (99.X% illegally) the latest (and older) movies don't exist? How much of the current bandwidth consumed at ISPs by consumers is composed of P2P traffic again?
This shows that whether digital distribution takes off is, imo, not dependant on consumer demand.

It all comes down to where the highest margins can be made for all people currently involved, and/or if they allow themselves to be cut out of the chain that goes from movie studio to consumer buying a DVD in a shop.

And the question whether BluRay will be dead as a disco? Currently sales for HD format are completely neglicable compared to DVD sales... If digital downloads start being heavily promoted soon, then I don't see why they don't have chance to kill off BluRay.

Then again, it all comes down to the current people in power when digital distribution will take off. For music, it already is happening. I don't think that they can ignore the massive illegal movie downloading for much longer either...

[Hulk]

Jerry,

Please don't start continually posting that list of crap downloads again. We've been through it all before.

Since VUDU is a new one you're promoting I had a look at it. Hey I'm all about HD downloads if the price is right, the selection is there and the quality is good.

Well first of all you have to pay $295 for the hardware to get going!!!!

Are they out of their minds!!!!!!!!!!!!

$295 on hardware for a system you can't even try out. And they won't even show you a list of all the movies they have available.

Let's be honest Jerry, digital downloads will eventually be the way to go. But you also have to admit that most of these pioneers will go the way of the Dodo, and Dudu probably will too. So I am to invest $295 in them? Crazy.

I can't even figure out how it works from the website. Can you help me. So I spend $295 on the hardware and then I get a lifetime membership to watch movies or something or is there a rental fee on top of that?

So how does this work Jerry? $295 plus rental fees?

And just how do they do HD with 4Mbps? The disc manufacturers need to learn about compression from them because it takes them about 5 times that bandwidth to do 1080/24p.

Right now I'm paying $9/month for Netflix DVD, HD-DVD, and Blu-Ray rentals plus streaming of their content available. No extra charges and no hardware to buy!

Like 720p optical discs will eventually disappear, but it's gonna be a while. In fact this thread has been going for 4 months. And for four months you have been WRONG! People have been using optical media for all four of those months. I will keep count of each day you continue to be wrong. You made the statement they are dead. Not almost dead, or going to be dead but dead. And you are dead wrong.

Wrong. 4 months and counting Jerry.

Wrong for 4 months and counting Jerry.

March 15 will be your 5 months wrong anniversay Jerry. Unless of course we see all optical media vanish in the next 3 weeks!

You can try to put words in my mouth all you want but I like a vibrant marketplace with lots of technologies competing for my money.

It's great you want Apple to dominate all technology just stop shoving it down my throat. I like to look at all options thank you. And right now optical disc is a good choice for many people. And so is streaming. As I said I do both. When I can stream HD from a convenient source like Netflix at a good price I'll do it and stop renting discs. Right now all the lastest titles in HD seem to be coming out in disc first.

Like I said 4 months wrong and counting.

Tick .. tock.. tick... tock...

[Mehen]

Can we please close this thread? It's just gonna get uglier.

[Elie]

you mean, all these people everywhere on the world downloading (99.X% illegally) the latest (and older) movies don't exist? How much of the current bandwidth consumed at ISPs by consumers is composed of P2P traffic again?
This shows that whether digital distribution takes off is, imo, not dependant on consumer demand.

I know these downloads exist, we have discussed streaming/downloading on this long winded thread for ages, and again, people who download are not getting 1080i or 1080P movies, they are downloading crap, I know, I've seen many examples. and won't get into the argument about "oh downloadable movies are top notch quality" anymore because there is no such thing, unless people are content with the quality.

And the question whether BluRay will be dead as a disco? Currently sales for HD format are completely neglicable compared to DVD sales... If digital downloads start being heavily promoted soon, then I don't see why they don't have chance to kill off BluRay.

I will tell you the reason for that...

1-The primary reason was the format wars, people didn't want to fall into the marketing hype from both camps and were holding off waiting for an end, well it has now ended and consumers are flocking to store buys cheap HD-DVD players that are now discounted and Blu-Ray players.

2-Not many people own TV's to playback HD to begin with, give it time and it will increase substantially

3-for the most part, DVD quality (even upscaled) is acceptable for many people, so the time it takes to to migrate to HD will be slower, but will eventually happen.

Then again, it all comes down to the current people in power when digital distribution will take off. For music, it already is happening. I don't think that they can ignore the massive illegal movie downloading for much longer either...

Look...music downloads P2P etc, has been going on since the invention of MP3's, is MP3 an high quality audio format? If you say yes, then downloading movies from the sites Jerry mentioned above will be ok for you, but not acceptable buy others.

Will movie downloads continue...yes, but the quality will not be there, the extra content the Dolbly Digital HD will not even remotely be a part of the movie.
When I say it will take years and year, I mean the following...

It may take years for hollywood to provide 1080P or higher res video, which includes a Dolby Digital or DTS HD audio stream, bundeled with all the extra content like you get in DVD's today, and a means to burn that content to a disc for storage (archiving)
When that takes place I will be the first one to post it on MURC.


Cheers everyone and peace.

[Jerry Jones]

people who download are not getting 1080i or 1080P movies, they are downloading crap, I know, I've seen many examples.

Are you sure about that, Elie?

1080/24p Vudu downloads:

http://www.vudu.com/product_movies.html

HDTV Magazine review:

http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/columns/2008/02/showdown_apple_tv_vs_vudu.php

With VUDU, every single movie on their "system" has a starter stub stored on your box already, roughly the first 30 seconds of every movie. When you buy, or rent, a movie that starter stub begins playing while the box connects to dozens of other VUDU boxes on the internet to download the subsequent segments of the movie.

The video quality was excellent, even for SD fare. All of their content is encoded at 24 fps. SD video is 480p/24 and encoded with H.264 Main Profile while all HD content is 1080p/24 encoded with H.264 High Profile. In all honesty, when I first began testing the unit with SD programming back in November, it was not obvious to me that what I was watching wasn't HD. I've looked at all the major players in the movie download market, and the quality they are getting with their SD video is unsurpassed. And the quality of their HD content rivals that of packaged media...

Their user interface is flawless. This system is so easy to use, I can put the remote in just about anyone's hand and they won't have a single question about what to do next. As advertised, their content begins playing immediately. Even for HD content, all that is needed is a 4 Mbps connection to be able to watch HD content instantly.

Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net

[Jerry Jones]

I can't even figure out how it works from the website.

Vudu FAQ:

http://www.vudu.com/product_faq.html

Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net