Computer Audio - How bad is it?

[DentyCracker]

In case anyone gets the wrong idea, the best advice in buying speakers is to HEAR THEM FIRST if possible, barring that ensure that you can return them to the dealer for a minimal restocking fee if any. I live in Jamaica so I could not audition my Klipsch speakers before I bought them. I had heard Klipsch speakers before and liked what I heard, plus Klipsch is a well known name to audiophiles, so I took a chance on them. Well worth the investment IMHO. Of course someone else may not like the sound they produce. The bottom line is only you will know what you like so listen if possible.

[Bixler]

Way to go RAB!

What you are seeing, while ugly, isn't all that unusual. One of the oldest tricks in the biz is boosting the bottom and the top, leaving the middle lower. In my experience, when people hear truly "flat" sound, they are not as impressed as when the sound is sweetened. And that's OK, but isn't it nice to know what you're hearing? This is where knowledge and intelligent assesment begin.

I'd still like to hear a few expert opinions on the relative characteristics of analog vs. digital. I don't think many of us fully realize what negative effects the digital audio revolution has had on truly accurate hi fidelity. No, I'm not a Luddite...I have no desire to go back to the dark ages of 78 rpm, but we have lost much of the art of good accruate audio in the years since the advent of digital. And I still say that there is NO sound on earth more accurate, with more dynamic range and presence than a direct-to-disc mastered vinyl record played through a system with the shortest path from pickup to speaker possible. Like real farm eggs vs. the crap you buy in a grocery.

Elemental DH:

Most of the posts here about listening with the ears instead of reading specs is true, but it is also a fact that there are too many ways to 'sweeten' sound to make it seem better, while actually screwing up accuracy.

What to look for? First, what NOT to look for. Don't be fooled by volume or loudness. Speakers nearly always "seem" better when they are moving more air. This creates the impression that efficient speakers are better. Not always so. Good clean power is so relatively cheap these days that you should NOT concern yourself too much with a speaker's relative efficiency or loudness at a given power level.

Accuracy is better defined in some of the 'gray' characteristics like dynamic range, and definition--the speaker's ability to reproduce the hidden detail in sound. Listen to a clean vocal recording and see if you can descern the detail in the voice. Another good demo of an accurate speaker is clean acoustic guitar. A good speaker will let you hear the fingers on the strings, the difference between a steel string and one made of nylon.
In Bass response, one of the best indicators of accuracy is a quality in amps and speakers called 'damping.' Damping is the ability of a speaker/amp combo to stop vibrating and start vibrating when told to. This relates to impedance (or resistance) on the circuit. A good analogy would be how a car engine runs better under a load, vs sitting in the driveway with no work being done. Ever notice how much rougher an engine seems to run when you just race it while in neutral? Actually putting a load on the circuit will make a big difference in how accurately the speaker will start and stop. You can really hear a difference in the sharp transients like a kick drum or cymbal crash on a well damped speaker. The trade off is some loss of efficiency, but like I said earlier, so what, just turn it up a notch--that's the amps' job.

Cheap speakers will also vary greatly in impedance at different frequencies. That's one reason RAB's response curve was so wide. A well designed speaker will provide the same impedance, or load, smoothly throughout the frequency range.

Oddly enough, the advice about weight posted above is surprizingly true too. The heavier the speaker cabinet, the less likely it is to resonate and add to the movement of air being done by the drivers.

Most of what a good speaker does is actually what it DOESN'T do.



[This message has been edited by Bixler (edited 27 December 1999).]

[RAB]

As promised, I ran another response curve AFTER equalizing my ACS 54's. I'm not a big fan of equalizing since I would rather have accuracy built in - not added on. But in this case, the speakers just needed it to get even close to accurate. Here's the graph and also the EQ settings in the SQ2500 software. The scale is the same as above, so you can compare directly.



Notice how the big peak at 125 and the big dip at 500 are reduced. Its now almost within +-5db, which, I guess, is acceptable for $100 speakers. Its much better than the +-12db I had before. They do sound less boomy and voices are more clear. For now, they will do.

Its funny, but Altec Lansing back in the 70's used to be known for "Rock and Roll" speakers (big bass, weak voices) and I guess they still are making them that way.

RAB

P.S. Sorry for the oversized picture, but I'm still getting the hang of this image thing.

[This message has been edited by RAB (edited 27 December 1999).]

[This message has been edited by RAB (edited 24 March 2000).]

[Bixler]

Rab:

In the real world, you're doing middlin' good there as speakers in the low price range would go. That's as far as I would take it...go any flatter, and the other inadequacies of the speakers becomes even more annoying than before.

Elemental DH: Where'd you get those specs? If S/N is 94db on the S/B Live that is truly amazing...sounds more like AGP 4X or "Maximum transfer rate of up to 66mb" I'm not busting your numbers, just highly suspicious of the source. 94db USED to be at close to the limit of even theoretical possibility. This, if my suspicion is correct, is not a reading taken inside a typical comp, but one taken on a lab bench. Comps and audio both suffer from too much of that old game.

Try this. Turn off and disconnect all sources into your sb live. Hook a pair of headphones up to the speaker out, and turn the volume up...any noise? (Yes, the speaker out...you want a little overdrive here.) A little frying or humming at medium volume? Really noticeable at full boost? You've got a real world S/N of maybe 50-60 db depending on several other variables...

[merchant2112]

gasoline, witin the last 2 months i have upgraded a lot of stuff in my computer.

i had altec acs400 speakers and desided to get better ones. i bought the acs56's (the four point digital one's and they sounded better than my old speakers in everything. music ect.. but i then read about the pro media's i sent off for them and tryed them out. (they were that much of an improvment.) i boxed up the acs56 and returned them to compusa. the next day. (only had them 5 days) so if your willing to spend that much try the klipch pro media speakers. they sound so good that im thinking about buying the quintet system for my main ht system.

------------------
msi 6167 mobo k7 500 wk41 now at 650. 256 meg ram ,addtronics case w 250watt sp power supply, matrox g400, maxtor diammax 2500+ 10gig hd,10x aopen slot dvd, 3com 10/100 nic and 56k ext modem, sb live xgamer sound card, lots of controlers (joystick throttle rudder raceing wheel), 19in ctx monitor, microsoft inteli mouse explorer(5 buttons, and klipsch promedia v2-400 speakers.

noel




[This message has been edited by merchant2112 (edited 27 December 1999).]

[RAB]

Tim,
I think I did all I can for these speakers and I'm satisfied. +-5 from 50 to 4000 is the best I should expect from $100 speakers and I shouldn't complain. And I can't make any further changes since the equalizer is at its limits.

The 94 db S/N ratio might be right for the low level line out because thats right after the Digital to Analog converter. But if you measure at the speaker outputs, which follows the internal amplifier, it is probably about 60 db.

RAB

[This message has been edited by RAB (edited 27 December 1999).]

[Elemental_DH]

Bixler:

Those specs are from creative's site. Don't remember exactly how i got to em, but i dug through the support section of the site and stumbled across spec sheets. One guy posted earlier that the Aureal's s/n was even higher, 96 or 98 or something. My amp in my truck, manufactured by the comp division of clarion is 100db, http://www.audiobahninc.com. It IS quite suspicious how these computer cards would be that high. But yeah, according to creative the specs are "legitimate".

[Bixler]

Gasoline:

Let me add a little reinforcement to Merchant2112's post.

Unless Paul Klipsch sold COMPLETELY out, and the brand name is in the hands of some faceless conglomerate, you can't go very far wrong with Merchant's recommendation. The last time I checked, this was one of the last "hands on" Gepetto type craftsmen still turning out product one by one with lots of TLC. This matters in loudspeakers, and almost exclusively in regards to loudspeakers. The world has benefitted immensely with the advances of technology, mechanization, uniformity, and digitizing. This has brought good stuff to the masses, (and killed my audio store.)

The last bastion of true hands-on craftsmanship is the loudspeaker. They must still be assembled, tested, listened to, and tuned, and it's a real art. One, I'm afraid that digital audio has turned its back on. So far, Mfr's have been able to mask cheap speakers with ever increasing amounts of juice and heavy equalization. --All beneficial when compared to the early days of scratchy,thin sounding transistor radios, but we've come so very, very far since then--we can do better.

Bottom Line: If you can afford it, buy the Klipsch...you'll have a touch of craftsmanship in a business that is otherwise dominated by uniformity (good), ever improving performance (good), and NO SOUL (bad).

BTW, for those of you who have been reading the whole thread, the original Klipschorn design flies in the face of EVERYTHING I said about efficiency. These monsters from the mid sixties take up two corners of your room, and would blow your socks off (remember the old Maxell commercial?) with 5 watts running through them. That was back when power was EXPENSIVE, and ol' Paul was making a point. His most quotable statement, (while selling his $2000.00 1969 U.S. dollar monsters) was, "What this world really needs is a REALLY CLEAN 5 watt Amp."

This is all history, BTW. Power is cheap today, and clean, and accurate...speakers have not kept pace, and Klipsch has had to follow the trends.

I still like Gepetto.

----------
Tim, a native of Arkansas, USA, also the home state of the Paul Klipsch audio company, in Hot Springs, Ark, --also the boyhood home of Bill Clinton. (All the stories about his libido are TRUE)


[This message has been edited by Bixler (edited 28 December 1999).]

[Elemental_DH]

Does anyone have any opinions on Polk Audio?

[Bixler]

Opinions??? WE DON'T NEED NO STEENKIN' OPEENINONS! (from A Fistful of Dollars)

Elemental:

You were posting while I was editing, but I'll lay back and let others post. (They used to be pretty good.)

[vanguardian1]

Eh...my friend's Kilp-something-or other (sorry, hard name for me to say) didn't sound that good to me, but he's a bass fanatic, so what can I say? I prefer hearing all of the insturments of music, not just a buncha base (although I do prefer a decent amount mixed in).

I was looking at the Cambridge Soundworks FPS2000 so I could use the digital connector on my new Live! Platinum (that replaced my old Live! Full Edition). Now I'm not so sure, but $150 is my limit for speakers, so what do you guys think? I love my current speakers, but they can't handle the max bass and treble settings on my Live! at very high volumes, so I want better!

[DentyCracker]

He probably turned the subwoofer volume up too much. I never put the subwoofer volume past 10 o'clock unless I'm demonstrating something. The speakers sound great whether they are at low or high volume. I cannot remember the last set of speakers that started to get uncomfortably loud before starting to distort. The satellites are heavy for their size are are very solidly built. btw merchant uses the same handle on the ProMedia forum

[merchant2112]

i use the same handle every where. (well as long as i can fit the name other wise its just plain merchant. (bye the way for you youngsters 2112 refers to a rush record.) "merchant" was my old btech/mech2 clan handle ie "death merchant" i was quite good too keep thinking mech3 mech3 but that gets to additing. so i try and stay away.
highs and midrange are reproduced very well the promedias are thx certifyed (although lately that dosen't seem too mean anything.) more than likely your friend "a bass fanatic not only has the bass set to high on the control pod but he may have uped the bass in windows and downed the treb. i would ask him how he has them set up and listten to them again.

------------------
msi 6167 mobo k7 500 wk41 now at 650. 256 meg ram ,addtronics case w 250watt sp power supply, matrox g400, maxtor diammax 2500+ 10gig hd,10x aopen slot dvd, 3com 10/100 nic and 56k ext modem, sb live xgamer sound card, lots of controlers (joystick throttle rudder raceing wheel), 19in ctx monitor, microsoft inteli mouse explorer(5 buttons, and klipsch promedia v2-400 speakers.

noel

[Bixler]

Vanguardian 1:

A little backup for Merchant. Ask your buddy to flatten all equalizer settings, and bring some music with you that you know well. I can't help but believe you'll be favorably impressed. Klipsch is a quality make. They aren't my personal taste in musical balance, etc. but you ought to listen to them flat before dismissing them.

Also, make sure you're friend hasn't fried the treble speakers (tweeters) by overcranking on a little bitty amplifier. My guess is that he has. Especially if he's boosted the bass on his EQ. There isn't enough power in the world to prevent damage to ANY speaker if he's boosted the bottom 500 hz (where all the energy in the power spectrum goes) and then cranked up the main volume trying to rattle the walls. You should only get LOUD on flat EQ settings.

I'm also gonna guess that your speakers CAN handle the sound...if you are maxing the bottom and top end on your EQ settings, you are probably driving your amplifier into distortion and that's the garbage you hear. Power requirements go up by a factor of 10 when you boost the bass by only a little bit. As I said earlier, that's where the power is. This is why you want a speaker with GOOD solid Bass response without the need for heavy equalization to get you there.

[This message has been edited by Bixler (edited 28 December 1999).]

[KvHagedorn]

Opinions are pretty varied on speakers. That's why there are so many different brands out there. How do you pick? Go first by reputation.. lots of people who are really into audio like speaker A, so it might be worth listening to. Okay, so speaker A doesn't float your boat because the tweeters sound harsh to you. Look at another group of speakers with a different tweeter design. Lots of people who are really into audio (and wait.. these people seem to like the same music you do..) like speaker B so you go hear them. You love them and take em home! That's the way it usually goes with high end audio in general.

One telling fact about B&W (a speaker I like a LOT, and one of the other regulars here found he agreed) is that they are used by 80% of recording studios to monitor their recording sessions.. (!!!)

There's a speaker that might be worth listening to!

------------------
Kind Regards,

KvH