Modern UI (metro) WTF

[cjolley]

OK, so our daughter is turning 13 (teen ) and so we got her her first NEW laptop. Of course, Windows 8.
Setting it up for her was horrifyingly frustrating, but I got it done. Though I did almost throw it out a window a couple of times.
This is a girl who has had her own 2 screen PC since she was 8 and could touch type faster than me by 9.
You can hand her a phone with any OS and she can just use it instinctively.
She has experience with linux, XP, W7, iPhone, pod, and pad.

After 15 minutes she came to me and said "Dad, I hate this computer. I can't make it do anything."
I got that fixed by installing StartIsBack (an amazingly clever bit of programming worthy of another post)

So all's good.

BUT, I have to order a $20,000 server on Tuesday and I was assuming I would order it with Server 2012.
Which has the Modern UI! I don't want to go to my boss and say "Boss, I hate this server. I can't make it do anything"
I will have to manage this thing through a kvm, or, more commonly, remotely from Win7. Not a touch screen in sight.
I am seriously considering going Server 2010r2.

Am I missing something?
Is there ANYTHING good to be said about this interface on a desktop PC or Server?

[Jammrock]

It admittedly will take about a month to get used to it. The Win key on the keyboard is your friend. Once you figure out where the cheese moved it's business as usual. Little has changed from the keyboard, only the UI stuff is different.

Win+X is a great little admin menu.
Search for an app, press Win button and start typing. Same as Win7 with start search.
Win+Q gets you all the apps.
Win+W to search your settings.
Win+E to open File Explorer.
Win+R for the run dialog.
Win+C to open the charm menu.
Win+I for Modern UI settings and power button.

Windows 8.1 will be a free upgrade released on Oct 14. You will be able to get it through the Windows Store. It will add boot to desktop and the Start button, minus the start menu. All the settings are in both Modern UI and the Control Panel. The default search will get results from apps, settings and files. And so on... There's a big list of changes. Much of which addresses UI hardships for mouse and keyboard users.

I use Win8 on four monitors at work and two monitors at home with no problem. The general rule for Win8 is to stay on the desktop as much as possible when on a desktop/laptop. I rarely even use modern apps except on my Surface RT.

UI aside, which I admit was painful to switch to, the core OS is solid. In a month you can get the updated, easier to use UI for free.

Server 2012 boots to the desktop unless you install the Desktop Experience. 2012 R2 will add the start button, but unlike Win8, you cannot do a simple store update to 2012 R2. If you think it's an issue you can still get 2008 R2 on server without trouble.

On a server and over RDP it is annoying not having the start button. Very glad to see it back in 2012 R2. I hate hunting for the hotspot in RDP or fiddling with the RDP menus.

[cjolley]

Hmmm. I've downloaded the 8.1 beta to play with in a vm at home. Maybe I can get used to it.

How can you search for an app if you don't know the name, or the executable's name. eg Ever seen what HP names their server management applications? There is no way anyone would guess those. This is also why I gave up on Ubuntu when they went to Unity.

Is RDP to Server 2012 even usable from windows 7? I have heard of problems.

What will be involved updating to R2? this server is for a cashiering system we are implementing over the next two months. Can't really rip out the OS and install a new one in mid stream. Will it be like 2010 R2 and treated like a separate OS? sigh


PS. Don't even get me started on the nightmare from hell it will be if our clerks eventually have to get Modern UI PCs.

[Umfriend]

It admittedly will take about a month to get used to it.

No it won't. My colleague has had his W8 laptop for over three months now and really really hopes 8.1 will be easier or we'll have to find a way to go back to 7. And even if you get used to W8UI, what is the benefit over W95-W7? Sure, if you have a touchscreen I can see having a layer over the desktop might be nice but other than that?

No start menu? Like chuck, I wonder whether finding the relevant program will involve opening windows explorer (prolly through internet explorer) and simply browsing the various Program Files folders...geesh.

[paulw]

Just install Classic Shell and all will be as easy as Win XP / 7 UI..

[UtwigMU]

For desktop: install some start menu replacement and associate pdfs, pictures, media with non not-metro apps.

For server: install management tools on another comp. You can manage 2012 from Win7 / 2008R2

Also CLI (CMD, powershell) is your friend. I did some 2012 virtualization with free Hyper-V and I learned a lot of CLI

[cjolley]

For just getting back the start menu basically seriously try out StartIsBack.
I really like his design philosophy. The whole thing is native calls, no running services.

http://www.startisback.com/

Of course, that's not the kind of thing I would ever put on a production server. So I guess I will just have to suck it up.
At least the server Modern UI doesn't have the mountain of bloatware on the start screen.

[cjolley]

OK, so I installed 8.1 in a vm and I kind of get how it works.
The start page is your pinned apps in the start menu. All apps is the full start menu.

BUT! You can't install 8.1 as a local user. You have to use an MS account.
You can install on an MS account, create a new local admin then delete the original account, but still...
If Server 2012R2 is like that its game over

PS I can't figure out how to close app without using alt-f4. They just seem to be stateless full screen windows, like a kiosk.
This bothers me on my phone too.

PPS, How the heck do you log out or shut down?

[Marshmallowman]

My win 8 install procedure is to uninstall every default metro app I could find... a quick test of each them shows them to be pretty worthless

closing them?, yeah the metro interface is so inuitive...not
I have been going back to the desktop , moving the mouse to top left corner to bring up appselect thingy and right clicking and select close.

shutdown, go to the desktop, swipe on the right side of screen , bring up settings, then the power button to shutdown , restart etc...
MS got embarassed by the running joke "click the start button to shutdown", and now does not want you to shutdown windows ever.

quick little note , I think in standard windows 8, shutdown does not shutdown....it goes into "hybrid sleep" or some such thing.
If you click restart it will do a full shutdown and restart...eg if windows update installs someting that needs a reboot, "shutdown" in the settng menu will not allow you to install the update, you have to click restart.
A warning I have 2 diffferent system shag themselves completely on a failed restarts after windows updates....may be due to cutting(bleeding) edge hardware(uefi)
I got to the point I complelety disabled fastboot/hybvgrid sleep to stop my machine form self imolating during large windows updates....

This may be an ASUS thing, but for multiboot systems(linux), do not use GPT partitions for windows , try to avoid using uefi...unless you want to deal with a lot of pain.
I have A gpt windows OS drive and separate one for mint linux, IF I boot into linux using the boot menu then shutdown and start windows(a big windows update will trigger it as well), the windows boot loader loses which drive windows is on it , bizarre. It will black screen on boot with no messages worth a damn. After 3 or 4 atempts to boot it will start a windows repair...well they say repair, but it more likely to completly trash a working windows installation because it dreamt up some weird boot scheme or some such insanity.

If I catch it and just "jiggle the bios, sometimes unpluggin the computer for 30 minutes helps(no longer tries fastboot, does a cold start).
What is garanteed to work is to unplug all HDDs except the windows OS drive and then boot, windows can figure out which is the boot OS drive if there is only one drive

Having ranted a bit, it may just be my config...I have reinstalled win 8 about 4 times on my main machinie after it "repaired" itself

edit: short story, I would not use windows 8 in any of it guises for serious work unitl they have improved stabilty...to flaky
nice gaming OS though...

[Jammrock]

BUT! You can't install 8.1 as a local user. You have to use an MS account.
You can install on an MS account, create a new local admin then delete the original account, but still...
If Server 2012R2 is like that its game over

Err... yes and no. In Preview they try and force you to use a MS account but there is a way around it. In the setup wizard when it asks you to logon to your MS account feed it bogus info 3-4 times and the local account option will appear.

This is a Preview thing only. 8.1 RTM will work like 8 does from the setup wizard with the option available from the start. They are trying to test cross device profile syncing so they are pushing MS accounts. The cross device thing means any device running any 8.1 flavor with a MS account will have the exact same setup. Same start screen, same backgrounds, themes, available apps, etc. This is only across modern UI though, so it's like a roaming modern profile.

Server 2012 and 2012 R2 don't even have an MS account option ... unless you install the "Desktop Experience". Without DE there is no Windows Store and no MS account. Local and domain users only.

PS I can't figure out how to close app without using alt-f4. They just seem to be stateless full screen windows, like a kiosk.
This bothers me on my phone too.

Move the cursor to the top of the screen. The cursor will turn into a hand. Left-click-hold and drag down to the bottom of the screen. App closes.

For touch enabled devices slide your finger from off-screen at the top, to the bottom of the screen, app closed.

PPS, How the heck do you log out or shut down?

You can also use Alt-F4 on the desktop like Win7. There is a way to create shortcuts on your desktop and start screen to shutdown and restart. Details here:

http://www.hanselman.com/blog/PinningUsefulAndObscureStuffToTheWindows8StartMenu.aspx

In 8.1 the shutdown/restart options will be available from the Win+X admin menu.


List all apps

To get a list of all apps in 8.1, go to the start screen and click/touch the down arrow. It's enclosed in a circle in the bottom left of of the start screen. You can use this view by default now from the start screen options.

In Win8, right-click on the start screen and then select All Apps from the bottom menu. On touch devices you swipe up from the bottom to bring up the bottom menu.

[Jammrock]

How can you search for an app if you don't know the name, or the executable's name. eg Ever seen what HP names their server management applications? There is no way anyone would guess those. This is also why I gave up on Ubuntu when they went to Unity.

See previous post.

Is RDP to Server 2012 even usable from windows 7? I have heard of problems.

Yes, but not obviously so. Get RDP 8.0.

http://support.microsoft.com/kb/2592687

When you RDP into 8/2012 you get a new menu option in the top of the RDP window. This allows you to open charm menus and the start screen without hunting for the 6x6 pixel hit box in the bottom left of the RDP window.

rdp_menu.png

What will be involved updating to R2? this server is for a cashiering system we are implementing over the next two months. Can't really rip out the OS and install a new one in mid stream. Will it be like 2010 R2 and treated like a separate OS? sigh

You will be able to do an in-place upgrade from 2008 R2 or 2012 to 2012 R2. The rules and conditions are already spelled out here.

http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/dn303416.aspx

PS. Don't even get me started on the nightmare from hell it will be if our clerks eventually have to get Modern UI PCs.

8.1 should alleviate growing pains. You can boot directly to the desktop and with the start menu back it will be easier for people to move around. 8.1 has a lot of improvements tailored to mouse and keyboard users, specifically business types.


I should be moving to the 8.1 RTM bits this week. You guys are welcome to hit me up with any questions about the OS. I can't promise I can answer the questions, but I will if I can.


On a side note, there are two major changes with the way Windows is being updated from now on. This is public, but not really talked about.

Instead of Service Packs Windows will get monthly'ish roll-ups (cumulative updates). This has been going on since RTM of 8/2012. Each roll-up contains an independent set of updates and fixes that are not security related. Independent meaning if you install the June 2013 update you do not get all the updates from previous roll-ups. And not security related means they fix other things, like app issues, compatibility, stability issues, driver problems, etc.

This gets important updates out to users faster. So problems you had in the first month or two of release may already be fixed in a roll-up. For this reason Microsoft now recommends to install the monthly roll-ups with regular patching and not waiting for service packs. Because service packs are basically dead. Though no one will openly admit that.

The second is a quicker release cycle. Major OS updates will be launching yearly'ish. 8.1 will launch this year. Next year will see 8.2 or 9.0. The year after will see a new major build. How upgrades will work has not yet been fully explained. I do know people running 8.0 will get 8.1 for free. If an 8.2 comes out next year that may also be a free upgrade. If 9.0 comes out ... all bets are off. Those decisions are way above my pay grade so I don't know more than this.

[Jammrock]

quick little note , I think in standard windows 8, shutdown does not shutdown....it goes into "hybrid sleep" or some such thing.

Kind of. Session 0, the system session, is stored in the hiberfil.sys file. When the system boots session 0 is restored from file. It is one of the methods used to make Windows boot faster. I built a system that can boot in 8 seconds from power button to usable desktop with Win8. I've seen then as short at 6 seconds.

If this is causing troubles with a dual boot you can disable system hibernation and it will go back to a regular boot mode.

[cjolley]

Thanks Jammrock, helpful hints.
I will say my daughter is thrilled with how fast the laptop boots. She's mentioned it several times.

MS should send some of their usability researchers here for a while. It would be quite an eye-opener

I don't think the 8.1 start button will be much help. Doesn't it just take you to the start screen?

[Jammrock]

Thanks Jammrock, helpful hints.
I will say my daughter is thrilled with how fast the laptop boots. She's mentioned it several times.

MS should send some of their usability researchers here for a while. It would be quite an eye-opener

I don't think the 8.1 start button will be much help. Doesn't it just take you to the start screen?

You're welcome.

It does. But when you stop and think about it the Start screen is just a full screen start menu with live tiles. Once I got that set in my mind it was much easier to relate to the OS from a mouse and keyboard perspective. I use the desktop parts 98% of the time on my desktop/laptop, and only go to the start screen to launch apps and check the weather.

Conversely, I use the modern UI 90% of the time on my tablet and only use the desktop for Office stuff. The modern UI is great for touch.

My guess is that businesses will pin apps to the taskbar for the commonly used stuff, then change the start screen behavior to show all apps. That is even more start menu like and possible with 8.1.

I'm not saying this makes everything better. It just makes it easier to relate to past Windows OS's.

We'll see what the new guard decides to do once Balmer steps down.

[cjolley]

Jammer, Jammer, Jammer, sigh...

I guarantee you that for the first year every single time one of our users is faced with the start screen I will get a phone call from someone who thinks their soul has been lost and is wandering around in the void.
These are people who call to say their computer is broken when it turns out they just have a stack of papers lying on one corner of their keyboard

Is there a way to put a shortcut to a normal windows application or mapped network drive on the start screen?
Giving them a screen with just a few great big buttons might not be a bad idea