Directx8 and Microsoft

[Joel]

I agree with Paulr on one very important point. If you use it, and you find it important and useful enough to continue to use it, then you should do the right and decent thing and pay for it.

Joel

[MXR4LIFE]

Interesting thread

The human community has a new medium to explore with norms and values. Some think this new medium will change mankind. I say the medium has changed but not mankind.


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"If your still stock,... ya' best stay on the porch"

[Paulr]

Aye, I think that's the point I was trying to make.
Nearly every single company now a days offers either a demo or trial version.
MS do, just give them a call and they will send you a 120 day trial for Win2k Pro & Server.
Most games manufacturers also release limited demo's so you can get the feel of the game, see what it looks like.
Symantec offer trial version of their software etc.
If after using the trial version/demo and you like it, then it's the time to get your credit card out.
Make the purchase, install the full version and enjoy it.
The end of the trial version/demo shouldn't signal the time to go and find a hack to remove the limited time or a site to download the full product.
So few companies work on trust, WinZip are one that do.
What happens when your 30 day trial is up?
Nothing, everything continues to work, just a message telling you (as their license agreement states) that you should now go out and buy it.
I use it almost on a daily basis, so I had a choice.
Continue to use the 30 day trial, find a key for it or simply send my $10.
No competition, I was happy to send my money.

[DosFreak]

ah, but the Trial is the Trial and the Full is the Full. Most people want to try out all the features of the Full before they buy it. Alot of Trials disable such features or do not even have them. That's why W@rez will be here for a long loooooooonngg time.

YAY!

[DosFreak]

ah, but the Trial is the Trial and the Full is the Full. Most people want to try out all the features of the Full before they buy it. Alot of Trials disable such features or do not even have them. That's why W@rez will be here for a long loooooooonngg time.

YAY!

[Rags]

Great. Here we go again. Another warez thread. Hi-Ho, Hi-Ho it's off to Joel's Forum we go.

I illegally downloaded almost all of the software on my machine first. But, all of the software that I have downloaded and liked/kept, I have purchased. I agree that trial versions are classically either not a good representation or neutered. The only times I will say this is BS is when there is a "time-sensitive" trial version that is actually the full version, but just expires. I beta tested win2k from it's early stages legally, got the trial version when it went gold, and got a great deal on win2k pro when it was pressed, and bought it. Now, if they could only do this with office, and other MS products, they would be doing very well. Anyhow, my point is that not all pirates are thieves.

Rags

[Dualbuzz]

I buy games and so on, but to buy Microsoft OS's? They used their monopoly and illegal methods to receive >90% of consumer OS market, so now 90% of applications I use don't run on Linux for example. I DON'T WANT TO USE WINDOWS, I like Linux, but I have to do it.

BTW I don't see any innovation in Microsoft consumer OSes (Win 95>98>Me) except dual monitor thing. On the other hand in the area, where competition was fierce, in the browsers area, Microsoft proved that competition is always a good thing and its IE5.* is really a good product, and I even use it (sometimes

[paulcs]

I believe software companies charge what the market will bear. If piracy stopped tomorrow, prices would not drop. It's not the way things work. Software companies don't factor in losses from piracy into their prices. I work for an economic consulting firm--in Silicon Valley. I spoke with an economist familiar with the industry about this, and he agreed with me. It just isn't the way things work.

Think of it this way. The big oil companies reported record profits last quarter. Did they lower prices as a result? Of course not. They raised prices. They charge what they believe the market will bear. In other words, they charge what they can get away with. Demand is high, so they can get away with a lot.

Your assumption appears to be based on the theory that companies charge what they need to charge to cover costs and make a nice profit. That's not the way it works. You price to make as much money as possible.

I worked for years in the scientific publishing industry. We knew our publications were expensive, and that the illegal reproduction of what published was rampant. Did this factor one iota into pricing decisions? Absolutely not. I provided much of the data used during pricing meetings and sat in on all of them. I never even heard it come up once.

In fact, if we knew a sharp increase in a subscription price would lose us subscribers, but maximize profits, we'd do it in a heartbeat. I'm positive that Microsoft is far more mercenary than we were.

As for DirectX 8, I'd like to know how Microsoft is taking a bath on it's illegal download. I suspect it's no skin of their noses. People used to take the same position on overclocking (as opposed to remarking). It was if people were somehow cheating Intel and became offended by the very notion. Intel's position as of late seems to be, "overclock all you like. If you fry your CPU, we'll sell you a new one."

Warez is different. Many people are using software that they would pay for if they couldn't get it illegally for free. But this has little or no effect on how much you pay for software. If a software company could get away with charging US$150.00 for a program, and revenue doubled because they somehow eliminated piracy, the odds of them lowering the price to US$125.00 are pretty slim.

Paul
paulcs@flashcom.net

[paulcs]

A. I never once defended the practice of pirating software. I objected to snitching for personal gain. I found the analogy to communism both weak and ironic, given that the widespread use of informants in totalitarian states.

B. I objected to the notion that software piracy eventually hurts the legitimate end-user because it adds to the price of a producted that is pirated.

C. I disagree with claim that lindberg's problem with Microsoft was related to the expiration date. I believe he was complaining about not being able to uninstall DirectX 8 when it did expire. He came here for advice about uninstalling it, took a couple of shots at Microsoft, and was treated rudely for no good reason.

D. I believe that the thread moved off-topic when lindberg was chastised for piracy.

I think there is a tendency amongst the self-righteous to misrepresent events in order to put forward an agenda. It is far too common a strategy in debates, and it concerns ethicists far more than simple theft.

Frankly, I'm not sure if that is what's happening here, but I always become suspicious when people take a high minded ethical stand, and back it up with misinformation and distortions. I find the self-righteous tend to be far too concerned with the ethics and behaviour of other people, and not nearly concerned enough about their own.

I'm probably guilty myself. I've shot my mouth off, loudly took a stand, potentially offended people in the process, and did it behind the shield of the Internet.

Paul
paulcs@flashcom.net

[Paulr]

Oh I have doubt that Microsoft aren't really that bothered about the illegal downloads of DirectX 8.
If anything it's another source of beta testers.
However......
The original post in this thread basically slagged off Microsoft for DirectX 8 saying how dare they make it time limited.
My first post, way back, was simply pointing out that in no way or form could you sit back and shout at Microsoft.

On the other points, if you don't want to pay Microsoft any money, don't use their products, it's as simple as that really.
Microsoft's 'illegal' tactics, well I could go on for years about that, but that will just take this thread even further OT.
If you want to use 90% of the games and applications out there with a friendly GUI you use Win2000.
If you use Win2000 you should buy it.

[isochar]

Wow, I'm surprised and not surprised to hear a lot of the things people have said here...

As far as my actions/views:
I buy all my OSs, but only SOME (very few actually) of the games.

The game industry is in an awful state right now. 90% of the games out there are crap at best. This is due to the horrible gameplay, lack of features, lack of people to play multiplayer with, etc.

The biggest problem is that companies are releasing software w/o proper alpha/beta testing. The bugs/compatibility issues that arise from this cause most games to be unplayable for months after the game is released.

Sure, demos can give a feel for a game, but they don't tell you QUALITY. Quality is programming and the quality of how a story unfolds, etc.

Not to mention that demos are becoming hundreds of megs, which means most users (who have modems) don't have the opportunity try it out.

So does this give me permission to download a warez/iso and try the game so I know I don't get burned?

Legally, no. Ethically, yes. You be the judge.

BTW, Win2k has been the best money spent on any piece of software I've ever owned.

[Wombat]

If we're going to continue this conversation, let's pick somebody other than MS.

Companies with a monopoly don't make a very good example.
After all, Win95 still costs the same as it did when it came out, and Win98.

And only MS could leave bugs in an OS, but recommend that you get the "fix" (next edition of Windows), but force you to pay for it.


And lindberg makes a valid point. If there's a bug in DX7 that causes it to not perform to standards (read: it is not doing what MS promised it would when lindberg purchased the OS) then he is entitled to a fix as soon as available.



[This message has been edited by Wombat (edited 18 September 2000).]

[Joel]

Hey, I even work for a company that is very proactive in making sure that they are fully compliant when it comes to the software we use. We are very dependent on computers and the software they run, and know that non-compliancy can lead to more losses in the long run than what we are spending to stay compliant. Alot of y'all may not know this but the SPA is becoming very active when it come to corporate software piracy.

Joel

[Paulr]

Paulcs:
I at no stage 'snitched for personal gain'
I explained my actions in a later post.
Somebody made the fact that Warez were available my business by spamming a forum that I frequent.
After I sent an e-mail to both companies in question they both thanked me and offered me a copy of their software.
I could have said no, but I decided that I would accept their offer.
No I don't look for warez copies of software I fancy owning and then e-mail expecting some kind of 'reward'.
If I'm offered it I will accept.
I felt the statement about 'bordering on communism' was quite correct.
In a communist situation the whole idealism is to 'share and share alike'
This works great on paper, but in reality fails.
Many, many people who actively pirate and warez their software justify it by saying why should people have to pay high prices.
Also the pirate community seems to live by few rules, but 'share one share all' seems to be one they do.
The initial thread was along the lines of:
'I have an illegal download of DirectX 8.
The time has expired, now I can't remove it.
MS, how dare you release a product that either I can't uninstall or has the need to be reinstalled.
It should be install once and thats it'
My initial reply to this was in defence of MS.
I have no problems defending MS at all, especially when it certainly isn't their fault.
Self-righteous, quite possibly.
Taking the moral high-ground, once again quite probably very guilty.
The simple facts are that there can be no justification for pirating software at all.
I can't afford to buy the product - Then find a cheaper alternative.
I want to try out the product first - Get hold of a demo or trial version. Ask a friend what they think of it.
Fed up of all the bad games being released - Wait 24-48 hours after a game is released, read the reviews.
If you feel that I am taking a high-minded stance on things then that is fine.
But I am no more guilty than the people who 'high-mindedly' post about how pirate software & warez is great.

[Wombat]

>I can't afford to buy the product - Then find a cheaper alternative

This isn't always possible. I am an avid Linux user, but I admit that in my life it isn't possible to live without M$ software. But this is because the only function it provides is the ability to read M$ file types. I don't need Windows per se, but I need to be able to handle .DOC and .PPT files. And since M$ is a hypocrite when it comes to open standards, I'm S.O.L. and have to buy both Winxxxx and the latest greatest*cough* version of Office. However, I do prefer to convert these files to .RTF or .WPD and work with them in Linux again.