Opengl & Matrox

[almghty]

Since its not really a gaming issue i thought i would post it here.

I remember reading that Matrox were focussing on the business sector and not wanting to jump into the high turn over rate of 3d accelerators.

which is fair enough. T&L i dont miss that too much..nothing much happening with textures ..even that i dont mind.

However what i do mind is their sloooowwness with getting the opengl icd up to scratch. It seems like opengl / directx is being lumped into the gaming arena.

How untrue this is. Opengl is a standard that is applied to ALL graphic apps and not just games.

Corporate customers are coding and we sure would like it if we could see our nice textured cubes without too much degradation. We would like to generate scenes ..even though it might take us 10 days ..we would like it to look good.

I'm not after speed but please make sure the opengl icd is 100% error free. I dont need to list the bugs do i?

You know ..people know them ..

sure the card can never handle the more complex functions but those functions can be emulated.

[Gurm]

Look, this has been explained before, but I'll do it again (and I'll even be nice!):

NOBODY makes a good OpenGL accelerator for the consumer or business market. nVidia simply chooses to include acceleration for some "pro" functions in their driver set.

But the GeForce is _still_ a TERRIBLE card to do 3D design work with.

Matrox have simply taken the position that if you want to do design work, you should buy a design card. And you don't have to spend $1000 to get one - a Permedia3 is around $150 and will run circles around a GeForce 3 in 3D Studio or Maya.

And if you want to do game development, you need to write for the GeForce anyway (defacto standard, whether we like it or not). So what's the problem here?

- Gurm

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Listen up, you primitive screwheads! See this? This is my BOOMSTICK! Etc. etc.

[az]

NVidia is going to ship the GeForce 3 Quadro DCC ("Digital Content Creation"). Elsa will build a card called Gloria DCC around this chip variant, complete with MAXtreme drivers for DSMax whis is the only rendering program today that can use DX8 functions. Vendor will be Discreet software, a division of AutoDesk, creators of 3DSMax.

found this news here.

No new functions, specs, prices and dates are known, but I beliebe this COULD be NVidia's REAL entry into the professional market, s the GF3 is arguably a VERY sophisticated design.

AZ

[bacon]

Gurm, I don't know where you get your information from but a Permedia 3 cannot run circles around a G200 let alone a Geforce 3. I had a Oxygen VX1 a couple a years ago, it old tech now. The fact is nVidia make an extremeley good OpenGL ICD, if you have not noticed they use unifed drivers which have the same ICD from TNTs to Quadros. These are some of the most stable and complete drivers I have seen on any OS apart from Macs.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">And if you want to do game development, you need to write for the GeForce anyway (defacto standard, whether we like it or not). So what's the problem here?
</font>

.

OpenGL and Dirext X are standards, nvidia cards just allow for more functionality.

AZ there is an official annoucement at nvidias website for the QuadroDDC, sounds great for 3D studio 4. I think this will be my next worksation card.

[This message has been edited by bacon (edited 15 May 2001).]

[Joel]

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">s the GF3 is arguably a VERY sophisticated design.</font>

Thanks I needed a good laugh.

Joel

[Gurm]

For professional 3D functions, YES a Permedia 3 or Oxygen card will beat the living snot out of a GeForce 3.

NOT FOR GAMING.

NOT FOR RAW FPS on your average machine.

Not even for simple basic 3D Studio stuff. I'm talking SERIOUS modeling on SERIOUS machines.

If you want to fart around, by all means get a GeForce - it will provide you with the basic functionality necessary to run 3DS Max without cursing and swearing.

But it's not a REAL 3D rendering board.

- Gurm

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Listen up, you primitive screwheads! See this? This is my BOOMSTICK! Etc. etc.

[Dr Mordrid]

NVIDIA a 3D WORKSTATION card for 3D Studio?? Are you $^*)@#! KIDDING?

That's the best JOKE I've heard all day!!



Gurm is right. The GeFarce may be OK for playing around in 3D Studio and gaming, but if you're setting up a REAL 3D workstation for serious work the NVIDIA is a waste of time.

Move up the Oxygen food chain a bit from the VX1 or get one of the Wildcats and you're talking very serious PROFESSIONAL 3D cards.

I'm using the Oxygen GVX1 Pro and it's excellent.

http://www.3dlabs.com/product/card/o..._pro_specs.htm

Dr. Mordrid


[This message has been edited by Dr Mordrid (edited 15 May 2001).]

[az]

I never meant any nVidia chipset is a REAL Professional chipset, but they are WAY more faster than ANY other consumer cards out there, aren't they?

Please Joel, I like Matrox too, but let's be fair. Tell my why the GF3 sucks. OK, granted, the texture compression bug (don't know why they still have it), but it's still faster without texture compression than anything any competitor has to offer, especially when using DX8 features. What's wrong with that?

AZ

[2Whyzzi]

xbitlabs just recently completed a "Contemperary Accel. card comparision" with the GForce2,GForce2MX, Radeon & Voodoo 5500 in 3DStudio Max. You can read about it here.

Agreed though, if you want to do professional 3D, get a professional 3D card.

[This message has been edited by 2Whyzzi (edited 15 May 2001).]

[almghty]

IF it sounded like I was complaining..I was not. I have a g450 and I love it.

I was merely bringing the disparity between a fully functioning OPENGL ICD from nvidia to that from Matrox (as an example).

Despite the numerous posts I see on the matrox forums from either the tech support guys or zealots constantly claiming "it runs here great .." , "nope no problems with the opengl icd". I dont really believe them because I can see with my own eyes that something isn't right. Point in question Tribes 2 - a post has even started in the forum with "post all your problems with tribes 2 here". Even though the example i give is a game the problems there is applied to any opengl app (even though that game is the most poorly written i have ever seen).

IF matrox is aiming this card at the corporate market who in the corporate market are they aiming for? Who in this sector is going to use the DH of the G450 ..none other than coders, graphic artists, web developers and the odd CAD guys.

It would be a great card if we only coded "hello world" programs. Or drew in lines. But sadly most of us have some form of 3d in our apps or need to render our scenes. When was the last time you saw your collegue load up his excel spreadsheet whilst reading his mail on outlook on the second screen?

All I am trying to get at is..i would be happy if in rendering a scene be it a game or from 3ds or maya that it renders it correctly even if i'm getting a frame rate or 2 per second.

OPENGL is a standard for graphics..it is a necessity not a luxury. To perfect their opengl ICD is not participating in the 3d accelerator race, though I get the feeling Matrox feels differently.

[Rags]

Why come here and ask us "Zealots" then?

BTW, I think that Matrox has come a hell of a long way with their ICD. It's second only to nVidia (if you happen to pick the right driver by chance, but even then you have to cringe when you need to update it), ATI, S3, and PVR's ICD's leave a lot to be desired.

Rags

[almghty]

I wasn't asking ..merely trying to see what other people thought. What?? there are zealots here???

Actually I like SGIs original GL ..which was the precursor to OPENGL.

I'm sure that Matrox dudes must comb through here now and then and would probably like for people to express their opinions. This allows them to perhaps re-evaluate their goals.

If nobody piped up about it then they would be under the illusion that it was perfect.

[Rags]

Give us beta testers more credit than that. We are giving Matrox a list of problems we see daily, and they are very responsive to what you and I both see.

Rags

[impact]

Don't worry almghty, you're not the only one who thinks that the Matrox OpenGl ICD could use some more work.

I am not asking much, I don't want no professional 3dsmax work, I just want to skin and map for Quake, but unfortunately most of the programs avaiable use OpenGl - which the G400 won't handle.

Oh well, at least some offer software rendering. I guess it's the world of 2 fps ugly graphics for me.

[William Gates III]

Just to show how laughable nVidia in a workstation would be, here´s a quote from Silicon Graphics550 workstation spec. sheet

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">VPro V7 and VR7

The VPro VR7 is a high-performance graphics solution equipped with a complete set of workstation capabilities for the mainstream professional. The V7 includes multiple output options including a standard VGA connector and DVI-I for flat panel display and digital monitor compatibility. In addition, the V7 supports NVIDIA's Unified Driver Architecture (UDA), which provides driver compatibility with past, present, and future NVIDIA graphics processors. The V7 supports AGP 4X/2X with Fast Writes, Additional features include, integrated transform and lighting, 350 MHz RAMDAC, high-speed memory interface, 32-bit Z Stencil Buffer, and complete support for Microsoft® DirectX 7 and OpenGL features. The VR7 board incorporates all the features of the V7 except for TwinView support. In addition, the VR7 has twice the graphics memory (64MB DDR) and has support for anti-aliased points and lines, which is important for workstation applications in the MCAD and DCC market. </font>

Rags: if Matrox drivers are so good, why do you have send lists with daily observed bugs? The G4x series has been out for a couple of years and the OGL standard hasn´t changed much, has it?
Why should we regard this as good?

Bill