Whats a good audio-stereo equipment forum??

[Liquid Snake]

I've been busy. Next week is finals week But after that, two months free of responsiblitiy

I had a chance to listen to the ML Prodigy and Odyssey. First thing I noticed was the massive soundstage. They were also very detailed. I heard instruments I never knew were there before. But I found the sound to be too harsh, and difficult to listen to over long periods of time. The B&W N802s were less detailed, but they were nowhere near as harsh, and still had a nice (though not as big) soundstage. I don't know of any other dealers around here with ML speakers, and it could be possible the dealer had the speakers set up poorly.

Heh, that other thread reminds me. Hopefully I should be getting that free Yamaha remote soon.

[Greebe]

Harsh?! Geesh they must either intentionally destroy the signal or make more from selling B&W's!

[Liquid Snake]

The dealer doesn't sell any B&W speakers. And the MLs are in the same price range as the B&Ws anyway - the Prodigy is $10000. Maybe my hearing is poor (I hope not, I'm only 14!), but my father and uncle (who were both in the hifi business a long time back) didn't like electrostats either. Or maybe the particular recordings I listened to were flawed. To be fair, I'll give them another listen, and try to find another dealer.

[xortam]

One word of warning concerning electrostatics is that they can't get as loud as traditional speakers. Otherwise, electostactics are very nice if your musical interests fall within those restrictions.

Let me caution you on how to shop for audio gear: Make sure you compare high end audio equipment in the same acoustic setting. Room treatments and furniture placement and such can make a major difference in soundstage, ambience, clarity, spectral balance, etc. I noticed a definite difference just by drawing a second set of semi-sheer curtains behind my KEF 107s: Suddenly the highs had more clarity and the soundstage was further improved. When you do eventually select your equipment, be very careful about properly adjusting for the acoustics in your listening room. I'm told, and have witnessed, that an idea setting for HT is to have a dead wall behind your front/centers and sides and a very slight reflection on the back wall behind your rears. You should also place all of your drivers on the same horizontal plane. This isn't always practical and you can still get good results with ceiling or high-wall mounted rears and optionally sides. Of course, you'll get a different opinion from everyone you talk to. I placed tapestries and wall hangings on the side and rear walls and have a glass framed picture on the rear wall as well. They also make foam faux wood beams that are good ceiling acoustic treatments. Owens Corning makes some very nice acoustic treatments if you want to go all out. The room acoustics are going to be much more important than minor differences you may hear in comparable quality HiFi equipment. At the moment, you just need to be careful to compare equipment in the same sound room in the store. Better high end shops actually set up sound rooms that mimic one's living room so you can get a good idea what to expect when you place your equipment at home. Better shops also well let you take home the equipment to try it out and allow you to exchange for other equipment if your not satisfied.

[Greebe]

xor... it's not really a word of warning... when electrostat's are manufactured to the quality level that ML are, overall loudness isn't the main factor. If any of you out there want speakers which have 94+ dB/1W/M sensitivity range then go for dynamic drivers with all that added mass (smearing of the sound). If you wish to hear true reproduction of the artists intent then get an electrostat like ML's. True it won't be as loud, but then are you going to a Who concert for the material or the volume level?!

If any of you, whom have sat near electrostat know that you won't have a ringing of the ear, like those who listen to ANY dynamic driver speaker.

If you wish truely loud speakers, then don't waste your time on any that have been mentioned here so far and get some pro auditorium drivers and blast your head off! I think the Mid/High drivers I use to install had sensitivities of 112dB/1W/M... that'll be enough to completely destroy your hearing in very short order!

I thought this thread was about quality, not volume levels (not like ML are really that quiet!)

[xortam]

I think volume levels comes into play when you're using your speakers for a HT system. Certainly consider the electrostatics if the decibel limitation isn't a concern for you (i.e. they're plenty loud enough). I like to crank it up for the occasional demo and I'm thrilled that my amps go up to 11!!!

[Greebe]

Not to be picky but what does the reference to 11 mean?

[xortam]

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">Originally posted by Greebe:
Not to be picky but what does the reference to 11 mean?</font>

Spinal Tap. Interviewer: "I notice that your amps have markings up to 11. What's the significance of that?". Spinal Tap Lead: "Its louder! You see most amps only go up to 10 but our's go to 11. That's one more." (not literal quote, but you get the idea).

[Helevitia]

damn! I spend ~$2500 on my entire system(receiver, speakers, DVD, CD, VHS, Remote, Wires) and you gys are talking about 10k speakers alone! Jesus! How good could the speakers possibly be? I mean, I can't imagine they would sound ~$8000 better than the Velodynes that I purchased? Is it really worth that kind of money? I am extremely happy with my system and, in my opinion, it sounds amazing! Specs:

HK AVR210 - Not very high end, but it supports DTS and DD along with some other cool things like Logic7 which is very nice.

HK FL8380 - 5 disc carousal

Velodyne Speakers - Sub = CT-120, best sub I've ever heard hands down. I can't remembe rthe model nubmer for front, rear, and center.

Toshiba DVD Player - This is very nice as it supports virtually all formats such as VCD, etc..It doesn't support HDCD but my HK fl 8380 does.

A crappy Toshiba VCR.

Philips Pronto TSU2000 remote - Haven't received it in the mail yet.

Dave

[xortam]

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">Originally posted by Helevitia:
... How good could the speakers possibly be? I mean, I can't imagine they would sound ~$8000 better than the Velodynes that I purchased? Is it really worth that kind of money? ... </font>

Hee hee ... not sure what my speakers would go for now a days (I'm sure a pretty penny) but I do know they appreciated in value a few years after I bought them (1988). AFA is it worth it? How good are your ears? If you can't hear the difference it isn't worth it. You should try to get something a little better than you can appreciate because you'll educate your ears over time. The "amusing" thing is the older you get, the better the equipment is that you can afford, and the worse your hearing gets. You've got to enjoy that sweet spot when your ear has been developed, and you've got the finances, and before your hearing starts to deteriorate. I think I'm on the decline now .

[This message has been edited by xortam (edited 10 June 2001).]

[ALBPM]

Room treatments..... I've been spending some time on that lately.

Bought some wool rugs to hang on the walls. We have a serious echo problem with 15' ceilings. I found some stuff called Nu-Foam which is actually compressed Polyester Batting. It's similar to fiber glass in acoustic properties without the itch factor. I put the 1" thick Nu-Foam behind the rugs to help a bit. I was also (allowed) to put some Burgundy colored Auralex "wedge" foam behind the front speakers. I did break out the old miter box and make some nice wood trim to go around the foam. So far I managed to get rid of the slap-back echo and improved the sound quality quite a bit and stayed within the "Wife Acceptance Factor"....LOL






Paul

[xortam]

Like the Southwest hangings Paul. We also have A SW Kilim rug and a couple light colored Kilims (I believe from Hungary) on our walls. A couple things I might mention about your speaker placement. Usually, the front speakers should be placed where they can "see" each other, i.e. there should be nothing but free air between the fronts of the drivers. Unfortunately that's not always easy to do because lack of room (I can't quite manage it enough) and overall esthetics. You might also try to place the center(s) on the same plane as the fronts and more centered to the side(s) of the TV (again not always easy to do).

[ALBPM]

I've moved them forward a bit since I took those pics. Here's a link to the Nu-Foam. I got mine at Hancock Fabrics in the 1" thickness. It does make a big difference when placed behind the wall hangings.
http://www.poly-fil.com/consumer/CNuFoam.html .

I also made my own stands for the CDM 9NT's and my Sub using cutting boards and 2" screws in each corner. They got the speakers up off the carpet. The 2" screws act as speaker spikes making contact with the foundation through the carpet and I still kept the spikes on the speakers as they sit on the hardwood cutting boards. Sounds much clearer and even more detailed after doing that.

Paul

[xortam]

Yep ... you've got to get those speakers firmly planted (I did mention about my Velodyne's "high heels" ) Now should we talk about the debate between placing your sub on a solid concrete foundation versus raised floor boards? Not usually a lot of choice there either.

[ALBPM]

eYUP.... Things have to pass the "WAF" (Wife Acceptance Factor)

I would also like to be able to put my Sub in a corner but that's not going to happen
I do have a solid concrete foundation under the carpet.

Paul

[This message has been edited by ALBPM (edited 10 June 2001).]