g400(max) users , attention , THIS IS CRAZY !

[deprived]

Ok, i have found out why tombman´s g400max ..
( ok... i think you already guessed it ...I AM tombman (hehe)) is too slow !!!!!!!

THE MONITOR SETTINGS CAN SLOW DOWN YOUR CARD OR EVEN CAUSE CRASHES !!!!!!!!!!

First you have to enable a generic monitor for windows , DON´T USE a special inf file for your monitor from the manufacturer !!!!
(else you would be a member of the snowstorm
effect club ;-)

Second , here comes the absolutely weird thing , check this out with 3dmark99max :

(settings and specs : g400max ,powerdesk options : 32 bit z-buffer on ! , vsync ON (registry hack!) , agp 2X , busmastering enabled , sidebanding on , cpu : PIII 540 ( 4,5 * 120 FSB), mainboard : ASUS P3BF , agp apert. 256Mb , shadowing on , USWC mode , 320MB RAM)


1280*1024*32 bit , 32 bit z-buffer AT 100 HZ refresh : 2497 3dmarks

1280*1024*32 bit , 32 bit z-buffer AT 60 HZ refresh : 2888 3dmarks !!!!!!!!!!

The card was NOT overclocked and i doublechecked the scores because i could not believe what i saw !

HAIG , KRUZIN , is matrox completely nuts ??
I mean changing the refresh rate should not have an impact on the performance , should it ??
Don´t forget that VSYNC was ON all the time , so it would be more logical that the card performes better at 100 HZ and NOT at 60 HZ , right ?
If i disable vsync BOTH scores get worse but the 20% difference between 100 and 60 Hz refresh remains !

I also tried opengl (q3atest) and even there at 60 hz i got 7,9 fps and at 100 hz i got 7,6 fps ! (1280*1024*32 all settings at the max)
(vsync ON)

I would be very thankful if someone can explain to me how this strange behavior could be explained and if there will be a fix in powerdesk 5.20.xxxx (or later) !!!!!!

[The Rev]

2888 still sounds slow for your setup

[deprived]

Don´t forget that i used a 32 bit z-buffer !!
(makes a big difference!)

Check out this scores and you know that my scores are correct now : http://www.extremehw.com/reviews/3dv...0/index13.html

(they used 16bit z-buffer and overclocked the card to 162/216 Mhz ! , i checked all the scores i am getting the same as they do now )

Cpu does not matter at high resolutions and bit depths !

If you know someone with higher scores let me know though ;-)

[Joel]

You know I have to agree that there is something definetly wrong with your system tombman. I have an AMD K6-2/400 with the G400 o/c to MAX speeds and except for the fact that I use a custom monitor setup and vsync off, at 1280x1024x32bit with 32-bit z-buffer, I was able to get 2498 in 3DMark99Max. And Q3 since I didn't see a setting for 1280x1024 I ran it at 1152x864x32bit with 32bit textures and trilinear filter with all graphics options on, and I was able to get 19.9fps. So as I see it something is wrong.

Joel

[deprived]

Joel , i get 2888 and not 2500 like you do !
I am sure , if you would run the test at 60hz refrsh you would get >2800 too.

(as i told you , cpu power means nothing when you are at >1024*768*32bit!)
I checked my q3 scores and i get exactly what you get ;-) (+- 1 fps)

p.s.: in q3 you get the 1280*1024 res when you type : r_customheight 1024 , r_customwidth 1280 , r_mode -1 , vid_restart
(you can change the custom values if you want to get different resolutions )

[Buuri]

First of all the performance is not necessarely better with a higher refresh rate. This can be proven quickly: Think of a scenario where where the graphics adapter produces stable 60fps for the monitor. Now, with refresh rate of 60Hz it goes just nicely, but using 100MHz the performance is lower because 100 is not dividable with 60 so waiting takes place.

Second of all how where the results with Vsync off? (oh but you answered this..)

B

[This message has been edited by Buuri (edited 08-21-1999).]

[Buuri]

Third of all I'd take that FSB down from 120 before jumping to any conclusions.

B

[Spider]

Hi ! ex tombman...

I dont knowe what is wrong with your system or as u say G400MAX if it is a G400MAX because 3D mark99 max MARK is realy LOW for your system take a look on my benchm. with a standar G400 32 SH on P2B,P450III@465(fsb103) No shadowing in bios, AGP adap.size 128,with ADI 4p monitor inf.file,DX6.2,WIN98SE...I notice that monitor inf file can only lead to loosing higher resolutions for exemp.1280x1024 and abowe but not affecting refresh rate or some kind of SNOW efect whrn in use ...

here the benchs :

3DMark Project:
3DMark Build Version: 200
Date: 1999.08.16
Time: 17:09:22
Project Name:G400 32bit zbf@1280x1024x32
Comments: Matrox Millenum G400 32 SH

32 bit Z-buffer ENABLED

Project Settings (Template):
Rendering Platform: Internal (Matrox Millennium G400 - English)
Resolution: 1280*1024
Color Depth: 32-bit Color
CPU Optimization: Intel(r) Pentium(r) III
Z-Buffer: 32-bit
Frame Buffer: Triple buffering
Refresh Rate: 59 Hz
Looping: Disabled
Texture Format: 32-bit, 8888 RGBA
Run Tests: Once
Title Screen: Shown

Test Results:
3DMark Result : 2.485 3DMarks
Synthetic CPU 3D Speed : 7.273 CPU 3DMarks
Rasterizer Score : 1.340 3DRasterMarks
Game 1 - Race: 23,4 FPS
Game 2 - First Person: 26,5 FPS
Fill Rate : 128,9 MTexels/s
Fill Rate With Multi-Texturing : 155,3 MTexels/s
2MB Texture Rendering Speed: 111,1 FPS
4MB Texture Rendering Speed: 82,0 FPS
8MB Texture Rendering Speed: 70,1 FPS
16MB Texture Rendering Speed: 37,8 FPS
32MB Texture Rendering Speed: 24,3 FPS
Bump Mapping Emboss, 3-pass: 26,2 FPS
Bump Mapping Emboss, 2-pass: 38,0 FPS
Bump Mapping Emboss, 1-pass: 78,2 FPS
Point Sample Texture Filtering Speed: 116,2 %
Bilinear Texture Filtering Speed: 100,0 %
Trilinear Texture Filtering Speed: 79,1 %
Anisotropic Texture Filtering Speed: Not Supported
6 Pixel/individual: 1.976,4 KPolygons/s
6 Pixel/strips: 2.829,7 KPolygons/s
25 Pixel/individual: 934,1 KPolygons/s
25 Pixel/strips: 968,3 KPolygons/s
50 Pixel/individual: 640,0 KPolygons/s
50 Pixel/strips: 656,2 KPolygons/s
250 Pixel/individual: 235,6 KPolygons/s
250 Pixel/strips: 244,7 KPolygons/s
1000 Pixel/individual: 80,9 KPolygons/s
1000 Pixel/strips: 83,0 KPolygons/s

System:
Windows Version: Windows 4 A , Build 2222
DirectX Version: 4.06.03.0518
Bios Version: Award Modular BIOS v4.51PG
Bios Date: 07/16/99
Total Physical Memory: 128 MB
Free Physical Memory: 49 MB

Processor:
Processor Type: Intel Pentium III
Processor Speed: 466 MHz
Processor Caps: MMX SSE
L1 Cache Size: 32 KB
L2 Cache Size: 512 KB

Desktop:
2D Display Adapter Name: Matrox Millennium G400 - English
2D Display Adapter Driver Date: 7-16-1999
Monitor Name: ADI MicroScan 4P/4P+
Monitor Driver Date: 8-28-1998
Desktop Resolution: 1024*768
Desktop Color Depth: 16-Bit Color

3D Accelerator:
Name: Matrox Millennium G400 - English
Driver Name: G400DD32.DLL
Driver Version: 4.11.01.1130
Total Video Memory On Card: 32.698 KB
Total Texture Memory: 85.434 KB
Bus: AGP

Supported Features:
16-bit Rendering
32-bit Rendering
Point Sampling
Point Sampling With Mip-Mapping
Bilinear Filtering
Bilinear Filtering With Mip-Mapping
Trilinear Filtering
Specular Gouraud Shading
Vertex Fox
Table Fog
W-Fog
Sub-Pixel Accuracy
Alpha Blending
Addivitive Alpha Blending
Multiplicative Alpha Blending
Vertex Alpha Blending
Vertex And Texture Alpha Blending

Supported 3D Display Modes:
320*200, 16bit color
320*240, 16bit color
320*400, 16bit color
400*300, 16bit color
512*384, 16bit color
640*400, 16bit color
640*480, 16bit color
800*600, 16bit color
1024*768, 16bit color
1152*864, 16bit color
1280*1024, 16bit color
320*200, 32bit color
320*240, 32bit color
320*400, 32bit color
400*300, 32bit color
512*384, 32bit color
640*400, 32bit color
640*480, 32bit color
800*600, 32bit color
1024*768, 32bit color
1152*864, 32bit color
1280*1024, 32bit color

Supported Texture Formats:
16-bit, 565 RGB
16-bit, 4444 RGBA
16-bit, 5551 RGBA
15-bit, 555 RGB
32-bit, 8888 RGBA
24-bit, 888 RGB


as u can see : 1280x1024x32 32bit zbfON Vsyinc ON 32 bit desktop =2485 for an normal , standard G400 32 SH not hacked or OC

now when I push the limits a litle :

O/C useing MGATWEAK beta 009 setting MAX values GCLK=150 MCLK=200

3DMark Project:
3DMark Build Version: 200
Date: 1999.08.16
Time: 17:48:45
Project Name:G400 @ G400MAX128x1024X32
Comments:
Matrox Mill G400 SH

O/C via MGATWEAK beta 009

Project Settings (Template):
Rendering Platform: Internal (Matrox Millennium G400 - English)
Resolution: 1280*1024
Color Depth: 32-bit Color
CPU Optimization: Intel(r) Pentium(r) III
Z-Buffer: 32-bit
Frame Buffer: Triple buffering
Refresh Rate: 59 Hz
Looping: Disabled
Texture Format: 32-bit, 8888 RGBA
Run Tests: Once
Title Screen: Hidden

Test Results:
3DMark Result : 3.041 3DMarks
Synthetic CPU 3D Speed : 7.134 CPU 3DMarks
Rasterizer Score : 1.632 3DRasterMarks
Game 1 - Race: 28,3 FPS
Game 2 - First Person: 32,8 FPS
Fill Rate : 158,5 MTexels/s
Fill Rate With Multi-Texturing : 188,6 MTexels/s
2MB Texture Rendering Speed: 136,8 FPS
4MB Texture Rendering Speed: 101,0 FPS
8MB Texture Rendering Speed: 86,1 FPS
16MB Texture Rendering Speed: 42,2 FPS
32MB Texture Rendering Speed: 25,2 FPS
Bump Mapping Emboss, 3-pass: 32,3 FPS
Bump Mapping Emboss, 2-pass: 46,6 FPS
Bump Mapping Emboss, 1-pass: 95,5 FPS
Point Sample Texture Filtering Speed: 116,6 %
Bilinear Texture Filtering Speed: 100,0 %
Trilinear Texture Filtering Speed: 79,2 %
Anisotropic Texture Filtering Speed: Not Supported
6 Pixel/individual: 1.987,0 KPolygons/s
6 Pixel/strips: 3.405,5 KPolygons/s
25 Pixel/individual: 1.155,9 KPolygons/s
25 Pixel/strips: 1.189,3 KPolygons/s
50 Pixel/individual: 790,0 KPolygons/s
50 Pixel/strips: 809,4 KPolygons/s
250 Pixel/individual: 291,9 KPolygons/s
250 Pixel/strips: 302,3 KPolygons/s
1000 Pixel/individual: 100,4 KPolygons/s
1000 Pixel/strips: 103,3 KPolygons/s

System:
Windows Version: Windows 4 A , Build 2222
DirectX Version: 4.06.03.0518
Bios Version: Award Modular BIOS v4.51PG
Bios Date: 07/16/99
Total Physical Memory: 128 MB
Free Physical Memory: 14 MB

Processor:
Processor Type: Intel Pentium III
Processor Speed: 466 MHz
Processor Caps: MMX SSE
L1 Cache Size: 32 KB
L2 Cache Size: 512 KB

Desktop:
2D Display Adapter Name: Matrox Millennium G400 - English
2D Display Adapter Driver Date: 7-16-1999
Monitor Name: ADI MicroScan 4P/4P+
Monitor Driver Date: 8-28-1998
Desktop Resolution: 1024*768
Desktop Color Depth: 16-Bit Color

3D Accelerator:
Name: Matrox Millennium G400 - English
Driver Name: G400DD32.DLL
Driver Version: 4.11.01.1130
Total Video Memory On Card: 32.698 KB
Total Texture Memory: 85.434 KB
Bus: AGP

Supported Features:
16-bit Rendering
32-bit Rendering
Point Sampling
Point Sampling With Mip-Mapping
Bilinear Filtering
Bilinear Filtering With Mip-Mapping
Trilinear Filtering
Specular Gouraud Shading
Vertex Fox
Table Fog
W-Fog
Sub-Pixel Accuracy
Alpha Blending
Addivitive Alpha Blending
Multiplicative Alpha Blending
Vertex Alpha Blending
Vertex And Texture Alpha Blending

Supported 3D Display Modes:
320*200, 16bit color
320*240, 16bit color
320*400, 16bit color
400*300, 16bit color
512*384, 16bit color
640*400, 16bit color
640*480, 16bit color
800*600, 16bit color
1024*768, 16bit color
1152*864, 16bit color
1280*1024, 16bit color
320*200, 32bit color
320*240, 32bit color
320*400, 32bit color
400*300, 32bit color
512*384, 32bit color
640*400, 32bit color
640*480, 32bit color
800*600, 32bit color
1024*768, 32bit color
1152*864, 32bit color
1280*1024, 32bit color

Supported Texture Formats:
16-bit, 565 RGB
16-bit, 4444 RGBA
16-bit, 5551 RGBA
15-bit, 555 RGB
32-bit, 8888 RGBA
24-bit, 888 RGB

agin for MAX setings i get=3041

& when useing POWERSTRIP 2.51.07

3DMark Project:
3DMark Build Version: 200
Date: 1999.08.18
Time: 08:48:45
Project Name:G400+Pstrip@gclk150 VsyncON
Comments: Matrox MILL-G400 32 SH

O/C via Pstrip251.07

MEMCLK=200,3
GCLK=150,2
Vsync ON

Monitor RefrshRate 65hz@15inch
"TEST RUNS STABLE"


Project Settings (Template):
Rendering Platform: Internal (Matrox Millennium G400 - English)
Resolution: 1280*1024
Color Depth: 32-bit Color
CPU Optimization: Intel(r) Pentium(r) III
Z-Buffer: 32-bit
Frame Buffer: Triple buffering
Refresh Rate: 59 Hz
Looping: Disabled
Texture Format: 32-bit, 8888 RGBA
Run Tests: Once
Title Screen: Shown

Test Results:
3DMark Result : 3.042 3DMarks
Synthetic CPU 3D Speed : 7.339 CPU 3DMarks
Rasterizer Score : 1.634 3DRasterMarks
Game 1 - Race: 28,3 FPS
Game 2 - First Person: 32,9 FPS
Fill Rate : 158,6 MTexels/s
Fill Rate With Multi-Texturing : 188,9 MTexels/s
2MB Texture Rendering Speed: 136,9 FPS
4MB Texture Rendering Speed: 101,1 FPS
8MB Texture Rendering Speed: 86,2 FPS
16MB Texture Rendering Speed: 42,3 FPS
32MB Texture Rendering Speed: 25,2 FPS
Bump Mapping Emboss, 3-pass: 32,3 FPS
Bump Mapping Emboss, 2-pass: 46,7 FPS
Bump Mapping Emboss, 1-pass: 96,0 FPS
Point Sample Texture Filtering Speed: 116,6 %
Bilinear Texture Filtering Speed: 100,0 %
Trilinear Texture Filtering Speed: 79,2 %
Anisotropic Texture Filtering Speed: Not Supported
6 Pixel/individual: 1.963,5 KPolygons/s
6 Pixel/strips: 3.412,0 KPolygons/s
25 Pixel/individual: 1.159,4 KPolygons/s
25 Pixel/strips: 1.192,0 KPolygons/s
50 Pixel/individual: 793,2 KPolygons/s
50 Pixel/strips: 812,5 KPolygons/s
250 Pixel/individual: 291,9 KPolygons/s
250 Pixel/strips: 301,9 KPolygons/s
1000 Pixel/individual: 99,9 KPolygons/s
1000 Pixel/strips: 102,7 KPolygons/s

System:
Windows Version: Windows 4 A , Build 2222
DirectX Version: 4.06.03.0518
Bios Version: Award Modular BIOS v4.51PG
Bios Date: 07/16/99
Total Physical Memory: 128 MB
Free Physical Memory: 39 MB

Processor:
Processor Type: Intel Pentium III
Processor Speed: 466 MHz
Processor Caps: MMX SSE
L1 Cache Size: 32 KB
L2 Cache Size: 512 KB

Desktop:
2D Display Adapter Name: Matrox Millennium G400 - English
2D Display Adapter Driver Date: 7-16-1999
Monitor Name: MicroScan 4P/4P+ (PS)
Monitor Driver Date: 4-23-1999
Desktop Resolution: 1024*768
Desktop Color Depth: 32-Bit Color

3D Accelerator:
Name: Matrox Millennium G400 - English
Driver Name: G400DD32.DLL
Driver Version: 4.11.01.1130
Total Video Memory On Card: 32.697 KB
Total Texture Memory: 83.897 KB
Bus: AGP

Supported Features:
16-bit Rendering
32-bit Rendering
Point Sampling
Point Sampling With Mip-Mapping
Bilinear Filtering
Bilinear Filtering With Mip-Mapping
Trilinear Filtering
Specular Gouraud Shading
Vertex Fox
Table Fog
W-Fog
Sub-Pixel Accuracy
Alpha Blending
Addivitive Alpha Blending
Multiplicative Alpha Blending
Vertex Alpha Blending
Vertex And Texture Alpha Blending

Supported 3D Display Modes:
320*200, 16bit color
320*240, 16bit color
320*400, 16bit color
400*300, 16bit color
512*384, 16bit color
640*400, 16bit color
640*480, 16bit color
800*600, 16bit color
1024*768, 16bit color
1152*864, 16bit color
1280*1024, 16bit color
320*200, 32bit color
320*240, 32bit color
320*400, 32bit color
400*300, 32bit color
512*384, 32bit color
640*400, 32bit color
640*480, 32bit color
800*600, 32bit color
1024*768, 32bit color
1152*864, 32bit color
1280*1024, 32bit color

Supported Texture Formats:
16-bit, 565 RGB
16-bit, 4444 RGBA
16-bit, 5551 RGBA
15-bit, 555 RGB
32-bit, 8888 RGBA
24-bit, 888 RGB


see 3042

so for the end SUMMARY :

default settings no OC or hacks =2485

O/C with MGATWEAK beta009 =3021

O/C with PowerStrip 2.51.007 =3042

im sorry but you getting to LOW bench & results with your SYSTEM if the sys spec are correct...becuse u have: 1. G400max
2. PII set on 540
3. FSB @ 120
look I dont know ..but DESABLE BIOS SHADOWING mabe this could help !

PIII 450@465 (fsb103),P2b,128mbram,Matrox MILL-G400 32 SH,SB.Live value ! ,monitor ADI 4P+ 15 inch ( )...win98SE, DX6.2, non shadows in BIOS , AGP size set @128..

have a nice day !

Spider

[deprived]

Heh , spider , i see you are using directx 6.2 and win98se !
I only use win98 and directx 6.1 !
Where can i get 6.2 ??????
Is it available yet ??
If my theory is right then 59Hz is faster than 60Hz with the g400(max) cards (BIG BIG BUG !)

Please try to run some tests with 100Hz refresh rate !!

[Android]

Ok it makes perfect sense.

If you think about it... VSync means that the video crad is SYnchronizing the frame draw with the monitor resfresh... at 60Hz, the video crad could probably pump out 60 FPS easy, 1 Frame per 1 refresh. BUT at 100 Hz, it can't pump 100 FPS, so it will draw once per 2 monitor cycles = 50 FPS... thus your performance decrease.

As for 3D Mark scores... Joel WTF... I have a K6-2 400 and I can only get 2500 at 800x600 with my plain G400... you AMD system is just wacky you lucky bastard!

Andrew

[Scytale]

Tombman/deprived, the scores are definitely too low, considering that I get 3025 for 1280x32 on a P2 clocked at only 4x112 (AGP1X, MAX@default). Almost makes me wonder if your L2 cache is disabled...

About the 100Hz vs 60Hz: When VSync is enabled, a high monitor refresh rate will cause a performance hit allright, because monitor access to the frame buffer is increased (ie. 100/sec instead of 60/sec). The monitor has priority over the software (it is the software synchronising, not the monitor), so this will have a negative impact on performance.

[deprived]

I told you that IT IS THE SAME WITH VSNYNC OFF !!!!
(try to explain that !)

[Scytale]

You mean I missed something?

[Scytale]

Okay, I missed something

100 vs 60: Since the G400 does not use dual ported RAM a performance hit will also apply when VSync is disabled, because there's still increased 'fighting' over frame buffer access. The hit should be less though.

I'll do some benchmarking to see how it affects my setup.

[deprived]

I played around with mobo bios and ctrl-alt-deleted some small programs running in the background and i got 3001 3dmarks .
Now if you have just a little faster ram , using directx6.2 and win98se (WHERE THE HELL CAN I GET DIRECTX6.2 ????????????) it is clear that you got 1-2% higher marks.

Btw , running at 450 or 540 Mhz made now difference ...

Please tell me where i can get 6.2 !!
(or is it just available if you use win98se ?)

The main thing was that with the generic monitor my g400max does no longer crash !!
(i have a Sony F500 ... to cool to be)