Win2k Drivers

[PaulS]

Rags, what do you mean, "The general public is not supposed to have this OS yet, anyhow"? It is available from via MSDN, Technet, the Corporate Preview Program (open to anybody with $30), the Windows Readiness Program (any hardware / ISV for free) and probably others I can't think of. Plus MS have given it out free at every conference for the last 6 months. I must have a dozen copies of beta 3 through different programs! MS themselves boast that it is the most widely tested piece of software in their history.

Even Creative Labs, who despise releasing beta software, and with their NT SB Live drivers set a new standard for buggy software, have released video drivers for Windows 2000. Nvidia have full DX and OpenGL drivers out, 3Dfx have 3D capable drivers. Is the NT driver development team at Matrox so brilliant that they can pull perfectly functional drivers out of the hat on release day with no public testing?

I think we might as well face the fact that NT users are still very much second class citizens in the eyes of Matrox - and Windows 2000 is just another incarnation of NT.

Paul.

[Rags]

I am sorry paul, but I do not consider that the general public, and good luck buying win2k from MS unless you are a developer, the corporate preview has been closed for months now, with only some exceptions. The general public is somebody who goes downtown and buys their software, or downloads their software on a public website. Yes, MS is making sure that a bunch of people have this to work out bugs. Yes, a lot of people are trying it out, but I am sorry it is not a released OS yet, and it is not publicly available yet, and you will not see public releases for all of your drivers until it is realeased publicly. When it is released, then bitch. Same goes for the thousands of people using the OS who can't get their modems to operate properly or at their rated speeds. Yes, NT's driver development has a slower refresh in the eyes of Matrox, and no, they do not have wide game support in the OS----DUH!!!!!. One thing we have been seeing from M that everyone forgets is a more frequent driver release time, with IMO much better drivers. I am convinced that M will have drivers for the system when or close to when it is released, and if it turns out that NT5 will turn into a gaming system, or it has more popularity than win9x, then we will see more game support in that OS from ALL mfrs, not just a select few. MS has made it clear that NT5 is not to replace the win9x series this time around and it is not meant to be a consumer platform. DX7 or no DX7, it is not intended to be a gaming platform PERIOD!!!

Let's just wait until the damned OS is Gold, then let's debate M's drivers for the OS. Personally, I would be irate if M alotted too much resource to a beta OS instead of developing for stuff that 99% of their customer use, I would be very pissed. I want to see the drivers come of age in this platform that most of us are using right now, then we start slamming for a beta OS.

Rags



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FedEx Sucks!

[tish beta2]

Rags. You are either a very ignorant man, or you are lying your but off.

That wasn't a nice thing to say, but when it comes to drivers I'm a very sensitive person

The general public is somebody who goes downtown and buys their software, or downloads their software on a public website.

huh? I'm the general public and I've never went downtown and bought any software (except for games, but in your eyes, that's no software).
Yes, many, many people downloads the win2k latest build when it gets available.

Yes, a lot of people are trying it out, but I am sorry it is not a released OS yet, and it is not publicly available yet,

As you said, a lot of people are trying it out. It IS a released OS. Many OEM manufactorers equip their products with win2k beta 3. Rags, as Paul said, the general puplic can buy the OS. Now. Today.

Yes, NT's driver development has a slower refresh in the eyes of Matrox, and no, they do not have wide game support in the OS----DUH!!!!!

Games? you mean quake3? it uses OpenGL, right? OpenGL is used in many development programs, like lightwave, right?

One thing we have been seeing from M that everyone forgets is a more frequent driver release time, with IMO much better drivers.

IMO those drivers get's more buggy by every release. I'm yet to see other results.

I am convinced that M will have drivers for the system when or close to when it is released,

I am convinced that those drivers will reproduce the story of g200's ICD. They prove this everyday by being just as ignorant as yesterday.

. MS has made it clear that NT5 is not to replace the win9x series this time around and it is not meant to be a consumer platform. DX7 or no DX7, it is not intended to be a gaming platform PERIOD!!!

Then why the hell is there a Games folder under my Accessories folder containing Freecell, minesweeper, pinball and solitaire?
Windows2000 is meant to be a replacement for windows9x and NT4.0. It is a consumer platform. Windows98 is a gaming platform. Why the hell does the RT2000 only work under windows98, it's just a gaming platform anyway? Why do many people struggle to make games work in Linux/GNU? Windows98 is, as many people call it, a toy-OS. So is Linux/GNU. Is windows98 used in companys network serving as workstations? Yes. Is Linux/GNU being used as high-performance internet (web/e-mail/transactions) servers? Yes. If it is possible to play games on a spesific OS, then people will play those games.

Personally, I would be irate if M alotted too much resource to a beta OS instead of developing for stuff that 99% of their customer use, I would be very pissed.

30% of those 99% dualboots in windows2000. When windows2000 get's "gold", the G400's ICD will still be beta/buggy/slow in both NT and 9x.
Here you're actually right. If M uses less resource on win9x driver dev. then no games would be supported.

I want to see the drivers come of age in this platform that most of us are using right now, then we start slamming for a beta OS.

If we were to do that, the slammi'n won't start until late next year summer.
I hate win9x. I use it as little as possible, and at this time, only play games with it. Why? cus whenever my scsi hd get's accessed too much then the mouse cursor stalls. whenever I close a game I need to restart if I wanna try another game.

I've had so many problems with win98 you wouldn't belive me. It's unstable, buggy, disgusting, I hate it. It gives me a bad taste in my mouth.

I will continue bash about drivers. Why? cus I've seen better other places and I know M can do better.

Dinner time! ¦ )

[Rags]

Tish, Tish, Tish, You are showing more and more how ignorant YOU are, Sheesh, where do I start....how 'bout from the top. :

huh? I'm the general public and I've never went downtown and bought any software (except for games, but in your eyes, that's no software).
Yes, many, many people downloads the win2k latest build when it gets available.

Yeah, they are called Pirates, and I wouldn't support pirates if I were a company, they can wait until the drivers are released. Again, you cannot go down and buy this OS, you cannot buy a new machine with this OS, just anyone cannot download this OS legally. IT IS NOT PUBLIC!!!! IT WON'T BE UNTIL IT GOES GOLD!!!!

As you said, a lot of people are trying it out. It IS a released OS. Many OEM manufactorers equip their products with win2k beta 3. Rags, as Paul said, the general puplic can buy the OS. Now. Today.

Yes, there was a time when MS needed Beta testers for their OS, and they needed a bunch, so they had the offer on their website to buy it, BUT IT HAS NOT TAKEN ORDERS FOR 3 MONTHS!!!!!! It is not a released product, that is why they call this latest build RC2, come on now let's say this together slowly Release Candidate, that's right class, candidate, if you don't know what candidate means they have english dictionaries.

Then why the hell is there a Games folder under my Accessories folder containing Freecell, minesweeper, pinball and solitaire?

BwahahahHAHAHAHhahahah, this was my favorite, God you make this soooo easssy. Sorry, but until there are widespread support for games from the game dev. and video card mfrs., it is not a gaming platform. Sorry, that is the way it is. This is not to say that there won't be game support in the future, only time will tell.

Windows2000 is meant to be a replacement for windows9x and NT4.0. It is a consumer platform.

Sorry, this is where your ignorance REALLY shines. Win2K over a year ago, was going to be the replacement for both platforms, but things have happened (I thought if you could read these forums, you could read the news once in a while, try http://www.theregister.co.uk/ , they have this as it happens. When was the last time you went to a MSDN when it came to town??? I went to one last month, and they clearly stated, as they have in the news, that Win2K is not going to replace Win9X, it is intended to replace NT4. There will be future releases for "consumers", but Win2K is not one of them.

When windows2000 get's "gold", the G400's ICD will still be beta/buggy/slow in both NT and 9x.

Then use a different card if you feel that way. I am sorry, but I don't consider having playable frame rates at high resolutions to be exactly slow. Yes, there are bugs, but I am confident that this will be fixed, if not then use a different card.

I hate win9x

I think it sucks in many ways, too. I use Win2K and Linux alongside Win98, yes the other OS's do some things better, but gaming is not one of them.

Why? cus I've seen better other places and I know M can do better.

Well, leave, get yourself an NVidia and have fun.

Rags




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FedEx Sucks!

[Ashley]

Rags - I assume your "Matrox - love it or leave it" attitude is in jest and that you just like to argue for the hell of it. The fact remains there are Matrox customers using W2K, there is no G400 driver support for it (and no, there are no alpha G400 drivers for registered developers either), other chip vendors have the drivers available now, and people want the same from Matrox ASAP. Which part of that do you find so hard to understand?

[Rags]

No, Ashley, I don't like to argue for the hell of it. I am trying to set the record straight. There are obviously a bunch of misinformed individuals out there, and that includes you. There are Alpha drivers for Win2K, they just took them off of the Website, If you are a worthy developer, you can still get them. If you don't like M's practices of not letting every Tom, Dick, and Harry have pre-release drivers, then I suggest that you go get yourself another card. It would be a lot better for people's mental health, instead of sitting around whining about it. Matrox has been trying to get drivers out the door for people, and they still bitch. Let them do their jobs. When you bought your Matrox card, there were never any claims that Win2K is supported, can you show me where they have said that it is????

Rags



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FedEx Sucks!

[BuGGz]

Dang Rags,
Get your panties out of a wad.
I am a paying customer like everybody else, and I would like a win2k driver, and one way to hopefully let Matrox know is by posting so here. It's simple. It has nothing to do with weather or not I have win2k (to Matrox), just the simple fact that a customer would like a win2k driver. Or at least I would HOPE Matrox would put its customers first.
I am glad alot of people are replying and saying they wan't a driver, they have a purpose to reply. And everytime you reply to the negative you shift the balance out of their favor, is that your purpose?

[BuGGz]

That was a little harsh, I am sorry.
Everyone has the right to express any feeling they wan't too. and they don't need a reason. Isn't freedom wonderful?.
Keep'em comming.

[Rags]

No, I would very much like to have Win2K drivers released as well, but what I am saying is that I don't believe that anyone has anything to complain about until Win2K is released.

There is a difference between wanting/asking and whining/bitching. The fact is that the driver is being worked on, the fact is they will release it when they feel it is ready to release. If you want access to the driver, then wait until it is released. If that is not good enough, then I suggest that if it is that important, then use a video card that has the drivers available. Don't think for a second that Matrox doesn't know that people want drivers for this OS. I believe that Win2K will outsell NT4's total sales in less than a year. Matrox knows this, and unless they are getting out of the video card business, then they will hop on board.

Rags



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FedEx Sucks!

[Rattledagger]

to PaulS:
Your quote about q3 + opengl+ dx+smp:
NT 4 has smp, opengl and Directx3 for sound. You don't need win2k for this. That you need is a card with usable opengl-drivers. (The G200 is unplayable in NT4)

to Rags:
Your quote about "hasn't taken orders for (win2k) for 3 months"
Funny... The CPP order page is there, and the text is slightly changed since RC2 was released 3 days ago...

Anyone know if RC2 has icd for G200? G200 is a supported card...

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Asus P2B-DS, dual P2-333, 256 MB, G200, SB 128. OS: NT 4/5.

[Wombat]

I'm really behind Rags on this one. He makes a lot of good points. W2K is not "out". It hasn't been released. You can not buy it in the stores, and it's not an option on a retail computer. Also if you're downloading an MS OS, it isn't available. After all, this is Microsoft. Hell, they try to charge for bug fixes, and you're downloading an entire OS for free?
You're not the general public, either. The general public can barely manage a computer with one OS, let alone contemplate a "dual-boot". Also, on average, the general public is not nearly as rude as you are, tish. Even if you think that Rags doesn't know what he's talking about (which would show you to be without any clue at all as to what's going on), the correct choice of words would be "naive", not "ignorant". I just hope you were mistaken -- notice I didn't say you must have otherwise been lying.
As far as OGL support in NT goes, tish, it's not supposed to run Q3. Lightwave and other productivity software value a complete implementation of the OGL library, and then speed. Games like Quake require support of a small subsection of the OGL library, and FPS takes a priority. These are two completely different goals, and if you're arguing that games should run just as fast for NT as they do on 9x, you should just pack your computer back up into the box and send it back. If you really think that having Freecell and Minesweeper qualify an OS as being a games platform, sell your computer and go buy a Palm Pilot. They run those games just fine.
W2k was supposed to be the new unified MS OS, but that's been changed. Get over it. Are you really surprised that MS changed their plans? As if they've never done that before.
Also, what makes you think that 30% of people running Windows products are also dual-booting W2k? I'd suspect the number to be much lower than that. There are probably more people running non-Windows software than there are running W2k. So, why don't we see more support for them? That should take priority over a product that's not even finished/available yet.

[[ minus one typo ]]
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K6-2/350@400, 503+ rev 1.2a, 128MB PC100 RAM, Millenium G200, RH6.0 w/ 2.2.12, Win98, and too many classes


[This message has been edited by Wombat (edited 09-19-1999).]

[tish beta2]

You're right Hawkeye (noticed someone wanted to call you this ), I should have said mistaken instead of lying. Sorry...

Now, Microsoft denies it for being a gaming os, or as you said, a successor for win9x. They only say that to give win2k the right "sent". I can now play Need For Speed 3 with my Sidewinder USB joystick in Win2k. That's proof enough win2k will be used alot to play with.

Just look at the transition effects for the menus. They fade.

I agree that there are probably more people running non-Windows software than, there are running W2k. But as you and Rags say, win2k is not released yet. And the popularity and ammount of people actually using it today is overwhelming. Isn't there 650 000 betatesters?

So, why don't we see more support for them? That should take priority over a product that's not even finished/available yet.

Because win2k is popular as hell. Everybody want their fawourite game working in a stable environment. Many are sick as hell of win9x's problems.

One thing is to attend meetings and being told something. Another thing is to read news. The third thing, however, is to use common sense; sent things and understand/analyze the real world.

Now let me finish this off. When I used my old TNT, I could play Unreal (D3D/Glide), Quake3 (OGL), Expendable (D3D), Total Annihilation (ehhh... soft3D?) and many other I don't remember, in win2k. Expendable I actually got a few more FPS too... Ok so Rollcage didn't work. So what, a little patch and kabang.

We, the consumers, will prefer win2k. We, the consumers, will also wanto play games on win2k. win2k is not a gaming OS, fine, but I know Matrox can make their win2k drivers in a jiffy if they wanted to hire more driver dev. and let me Play Expendable with EMBM

Hey, what can I say, Matrox are the Direct3D kings

Time to sleep ¦ )

[Rags]

tish,

I hope you are right about consumers preferring Win2K, and Win2K coming around as far as game support is concerned. But, the way MS works, I doubt it will happen. MS licensing practices dictates what is going to be on what computers. It is too bad that most people aren't like us, and just build their own, rather than go through an OEM. Then I am sure that we would have more choice of what OS is going to be installed, and Win9X wouldn't have been allowed to slide by like it has. Win9x does a lot of things right, compatibility is one of them, but there are also a lot that is doesn't do right at the same time. If consumers actually had a choice on what OS was installed on their PC, then I am confident that we would see many different options as far as OS's go, rather than 2 major(NT, 9X) and one up and coming (Linux,etc.).
Only time will tell what will settle out of this.

Rags


Ps: Hawkeye:


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FedEx Sucks!



[This message has been edited by Rags (edited 09-19-1999).]

[Wombat]

Either it's just too late, or I've been working too hard. Where did Hawkeye come from? This isn't some M*A*S*H reference, is it?

[PaulS]

Wow, this thread has been busy overnight.

Rattledagger: Sorry, NT 4 does not support direct sound or any other DirectX API that requires access to hardware (hardware direct sound, 3d etc). Fortunately games like Quake have a fallback mode that uses the standard multimedia API's to play sound on NT (though with a performance penalty). Windows 2000 is the first time that hardware DirectX has been used in an SMP environment.

Rags: The Microsoft Gaming Console is based on Windows CE - which is a stripped down version of NT. The MGC will use the DirectX technology developed for the Windows 2000 kernel. There is no question that MS sees the NT kernel as its game platform. Even the likes of ID's John M (not exactly a Microsoft fan) has gone on the record saying that NT is by far the best MS platform for games.

Debating whether or not Windows 2000 is intended as a consumer OS is pointless. MS bought their NT development team a bit of breathing space a year back by extending the Win 9X OS for another iteration, but it is obvious from the current release candidates that DirectX on NT is not an afterthought; it is complete and very fast! I would think that once 2000 hits the streets, Millennium will be repositioned as a simplified OS for budget systems.

Anyway, I guess the policy of my local OEM sums it up pretty well. He won't put G400's into any of his Windows 2000 Ready systems. If the client really wants a Matrox card he uses a G200, but sells it as a 2D only solution. Otherwise he uses Nvidia based cards.

Paul