New Win2000 drivers today?

[Targon]

Whine, whine, whine. Everyone LOVES to complain about this sort of thing, but when it comes right down to it, those who are early adopters generally get burned. I won't talk about the NT 4 drivers, since I don't run NT, but I've learn that it's NEVER a good idea to jump on a new OS without expecting driver problems. Or at least, no one with any idea how hard it is to write drivers for an OS without good documentation.

[Ant]

The initial Win 9x 5.50 beta release was done so purely on a marketing decision because it gave better benchmark results, it was unstable and its release was advised against by other parts of Matrox.

Quite why an OS that has been in beta for as long as Windows NT5/2000 has been should be expected to have unstable drviers intially I don't know. Surely that is the whole point of having a beta program to allow developers to write stable drivers for its release, it's not as if the programmers got their first look at Win 2K on the 17th along with the rest of the general public.

NT4 users can hardly be described as early adopters yet G400 owners on NT have and continue to be burned by the state of the drivers.

PaulS is spot on with regard to the Linux drivers, in a few short months a group of opensource driver developers without access to the WARP code produced a Linux driver that in some cases outperformed Matrox's Win 9x driver. What could these guys do if they had the full WARP code to play with as the Matrox developers do?


[This message has been edited by Ant (edited 19 February 2000).]

[PaulS]

Hi Targon, Which bits of the Windows 2000 DDK do you feel are poorly documented?

Paul

[tylau]

Paul,

I am not a person who gets sucked in by marketing, I just look at facts. The fact is that Matrox has been cooperative with 3rd party Linux developers. The fact is that even with that help, the drivers were never as fast as 9x. The fact is that the drivers were coming along nicely. The fact is that people were whining constantly for Matrox to do something about supporting Linux, and they have responded positively. Whatever their motives are, they are responsive. Look back just over a year ago, Matrox was completely unresponsive. They have made a turn for the better, and you know it. Of course, they make decisions like this so they can go where the money is. That is called business, and if you don't grasp that idea, then I am sorry for you.

Ant,

It seems as though Matrox is damned if they do, and damned if they don't. If they hadn't released the drivers at all, then you would be sitting here saying that they had "been unresponsive to requests for a DX7 driver, etc..." Instead they released one, yes it was unstable to a point and had bugs, but there were quite a few people who were willing to live with the bugs, as evidenced by the posts, just as long as they got the drivers available to use. Matrox made sure that they were released as beta drivers, and no one was forced to use them. Hell, I saw several posts from Beta Testers advising against it. It's all moot, anyhow. There is a better revision available, that has far fewer bugs, and they do perform well. If the non beta release is better than the current beta, then we will be in pretty good shape.
As to whether or not the drivers were released as a marketing tool, is obvious. You show me one company that releases drivers just because they are nice guys and feel like we should have new drivers. You know that is not what companies do, you are not a stupid person. They release drivers to add requested/needed features, add software support and fix bugs. If companies didn't do this, it would be a marketing nightmare. You know this, too. Driver releases are a part of a companies strategy to keep you using their products, and coming back for more----that is marketing in it's purest form, responding to customers needs/requests AFTER they bought the product.

Tin Yau Lau

[Ant]

Tylau come out from behind your mask, why the need to hide? And if you are the real Tylau then I'm just about to reinstate your ban

Try joining the Linux GLX dev list and see what they have to say about Matrox's support, it is non to flatering. Try also going to the list archive and look at the benchamrks that have been posted and you will see that the GLX driver has been shown to match and surpass the Win 9x ICD, most certainly on the G200. People were not whining for Matrox to do anything about Linux drivers as there was already an excellent Opensource development project under way. I don't call Matrox supporting Linux by trying to take credit for the hard work of Opensource developers.

When driver development and release is taken out of the hands of the developers and put under the control of marketing it's bad for the end user. I don't think that is a moot point, look what is has done for NT 4 users. And if you think releasing a beta driver against the wishes of its developers is a good idea just because it scores a few more benchmark points that marketing can add onto their pretty little graphs is acceptable then I feel for you. Yeah sure some of the BBs advised against using them but you know as well as I that the majority of people will see a new release go grab it and install it then suffer the consequences.

[PaulS]

Unfortunately Tylau, I am not as clever as you. I did get sucked in by Matrox's OpenGL / NT promises with my G200 (with several of them actually, we put them into all our development machines). However, when I purchased a G400 (only one this time, I do learn), I did so expecting to have to fight Matrox tooth and nail for decent NT support, and they have not surprised me.

There are really only two alternatives. Either all the NT users shutup and pray we are fed with crumbs from the master's table. Or we protest, and keep trying get Matrox to take NT seriously.

So far, I see no evidence that Matrox has suddenly reprioritised NT.

If you were to say that we should stop whinging because Matrox obviously pays no attention, then you have a point. Other than that, I don't have any idea what you are trying to say.

Paul

[tylau]

Paul,

I figured you wouldn't understand, well here goes:

I, like you remember the G200 fiasco. I was in the same boat as the rest of us.
Also, I feel that Matrox has made some steps in the right direction, and if you remember the G200's problems, then I cannot understand how you disagree with me. I know that there is more to be done as far as I am concerned. But the question is how do we get more out of them??? Are we supposed to act like spoiled brats and pound our hands and feet on the ground holding our breath??? Obviously some members here have taken that approach, but I believe that it is counter-productive. If you like what they do, let them know what it is you do like. If there is something that you need, email them and let them know. Continual bitching even after they make progress towards something you want does not help. If you are really concerned with how things are going, and you really want your voice to be heard, then you have to find a better way of getting your point across. My mother once told me that "When you open your mouth, and bullshit comes out, all you do is get a mouth full of flies and shit on your shoes" you know what, there is truth in that.

Tin Yau Lau

Oh, and in fairness to my father, he gave me some good advice a few years ago, and I wish I would have listened to it "Never trust anything that bleeds for 5 days and doesn't die..."

[Ant]

Things are only going in the right direction if you are a Win 9x gamer. If you are a Win NT OpenGL app user then it has most definately been going in the wrong way. Matrox used to have by far the best Windows NT support around. They have now abandoned Windows NT users to a large degree and let down those users.

These forums are here for users to voice their opinions whether that is pro or anti Matrox, so long as they do that in a rational and adult manner without resorting to childish flaming then there is no problem, is there? PaulS has put forward his problems in a resonable manner so why do you have to resort to calling that bitching? He has a valid problem and is quite entitled to talk about it here. Perhaps one day Matrox will open their own forums that will be nicely controlled to stop people complaining but not here

[This message has been edited by Ant (edited 19 February 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Ant (edited 19 February 2000).]

[PaulS]

So that's the solution! Matrox is unaware that there are driver problems. Silly me, how did I miss that?

Paul

[This message has been edited by PaulS (edited 19 February 2000).]

[tylau]

Well, you changed my mind....

Ant, you are correct. All Matrox wants to do is take our money and run. They don't give a rat's ass about us, or the OS's we use. All they care about is squashing out any bad press about them, and making pretty graphs in Magazine ads. They are forming a conspiracy against anyone who is upset with them, and are going to do anything they can to squelch complaints...

PaulS, you are right, Matrox is sitting on their proverbial thumbs right now, and we all are going to suffer....time for some beer

Tin Yau Lau



[This message has been edited by tylau (edited 19 February 2000).]

[PaulS]

Tylau,

Are you refering to my comment that Matrox has been oblivious to public opinion in the past?

I should qualify that comment by saying that once a situation starts to get editorial space on major sites, Matrox do start making noises, so I guess they are not completely oblivious, not when it starts to hurt their bottom line.

You go on to say, in a roundabout fashion, that it is the OEMs who are the important ones (in Matrox's eyes), that the DIY market is a lesser priority? I agree! I have a feeling that the best hope for good NT drivers lies with major OEM's adopting it, but unfortunately this has been dampened by MS pushing the "Business Only" line.

"Mostly stable" doesn't cut it with NT. Win9X sure, you trade some stability for compatibility. NT has a big weak spot, vendor supplied kernel mode drivers. NT support that _might_ be "getting there" after 2 years does not give me a warm fuzzy feeling toward Matrox.

But I will take your advice. Instead of just posting bug reports to Matrox, I'll post some praise as well. "Today, I was able to render for 2 hours without a crash". I'll let you know how it goes.

Paul

[tylau]

Like I said, you suck and I suck in Matrox's eyes. They don't care that 9-13% of users out there are on NT. They are a bunch of money hungry bastards. If they were any kind of company they would put all their resources towards us, and tell the OEM's to screw off. Read my post again.

What kind of "rendering" were you doing in NT that caused your crash?

Tin Yau Lau

[PaulS]

Playing Quake

Paul

[Ant]

Tylau if you are going to start attacking people at least have the guts to do it under your real persona rather than hiding behind this Tylau guise, or is this a new role of the beta testers to come into the forums in disguise and fight for Matrox's honour

It is true Matrox have turned things around as far as their Win 9x drivers are concnerned but they haven't in other areas where they are still lacking. I have given them a great deal of credit on the MURC for the improvement in OpenGL etc under Win 9x but that does not mean that people should shut up and put up with poor quality support in other areas does it? If someone buys a G400 for running OpenGL apps under NT what does it matter to them that the Win 9x support as improved greatly when they are stuck with poor NT 4 drivers?

Matrox are good in some areas and poor in others, why is it such a sin all of a sudden to be pointing out the bad points?

[LAMFDTK]

"They are a bunch of money hungry bastards. If they were any kind of company they would put all their resources towards us, and tell the OEM's to screw off."

wow what a dumbsh*% you must be. I read this whole thread and got to this one and figured that this is nothing but rubbish ! Good points Ant. I can't belive that the whole market in graphics cards rests in the gaming market. I really think that there will be a "surprises" concerning Matrox before the year is up. Someone will buy the company. As for W2K support it is pretty damm good if you were to ask me.
Ant you page is really great ! I really appreciate the work you devote to it.

Go Gordon !