G400 Driver Rant (Depressing)

[The PIT]

Maybe thats why a certain company managed to do a bit of head hunting.

[Gurm]

I want to clarify something. I don't want anyone to think that I'm 100% disenchanted with my G400 or with Matrox. They can turn things around. Obviously. And if they have finally decided to pull their heads out of their asses and fix the ICD, that's great. And I may very well buy a G800 if it's enough better than whatever else is out there, and once again I'm not an FPS hunter.

But I think for now I may have to move the G400 to the P3-500 box, and run one of these cute new GeFarce2MX boards in the Dual Celly machine. It's only $150 so I don't feel bad about buying it and then ditching it in 6 months when the G800 comes out.

*sigh*

- Gurm

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Listen up, you primitive screwheads! See this? This is my BOOMSTICK! Etc. etc.

[Stil]

Gurm:

"The G400 is the ONLY major card which does not function under SMP in Win2k."

Examples please? Matrox would love to know what applications you are having problems with under Win2k.

"The G400 is the ONLY major card which doesn't support many OpenGL modes."

Please explain what an "OpenGL mode" is, and which ones Matrox is supposed to support. I do believe you are talking straight out of your rear end right here.

"The G400 is the ONLY major card which doesn't run Q3Radiant."

Have you submitted a detailed bug report to Matrox on how to reproduce this problem?

"If the G400 is primarily a professional card and NOT a gaming card, then Maya should work. 3DS Max should work. And SMP support should have come out of the box in the NT drivers."

Gee, these all WORK FINE FOR ME. Have you ever considered that maybe YOUR system is screwed up? Have you reported these problems to Matrox? I haven't tried Dungeon Keeper so I can't comment on that.

"And it's not like they ever made a 100% ICD for the G200, either."

Please describe what a 100% ICD is, and what makes the G200's less than 100%? (What's the percentage on the G200, 90%? 80%?)


"However, they seem entirely uninterested in making that ICD "complete", by any definition of the word."

Again, If you know how to define a "complete" ICD, please explain. Is it non-conformant? If so Matrox would LOVE to know about it. Sitting here in MURC WHINING and COMPLAINING will do you absolutely no good.

Please explain what you used to draw the conclusions that the OpenGL implementation on the TNT1 is better than the G400's. I would like facts backed up with numbers.

Please explain how Matrox's ICD is something less than "FULL". In the process of your explanation you will doubtless be able to explain just what a "FULL" ICD is supposed to be.

I don't mean for this to sound like a flame, Gurm, but really I think your arguments would be much more effective if you were able to back things up with facts, reliable reproduction scenarios that work on systems besides your own, and sent them to Matrox instead of posting them to the forums here.

[Gurm]

Ok Stil - I'll take your bait.

"The G400 is the ONLY major card which does not function under SMP in Win2k."

Examples please? Matrox would love to know what applications you are having problems with under Win2k.

Ok. Fire up any SMP enabled GAME. Quake3, Unreal Tourney, hmm... then try any app that tries to manage its SMP use on its own. There aren't many, admittedly. Most let Win2k manage the processor usage itself. At any rate, any program (or game) that monitors its own SMP usage crashes hard after about 30 seconds (sometimes as long as 5 minutes if you are really lucky and the gods smile on you).

"The G400 is the ONLY major card which doesn't support many OpenGL modes."

Please explain what an "OpenGL mode" is, and which ones Matrox is supposed to support. I do believe you are talking straight out of your rear end right here.

*sigh* If I have to explain what an OpenGL mode is, then there is precious little point arguing with you. So I'm going to assume that you meant you want to know what's broken, right? Ok. Here goes... any mode other than plain ol' vanilla "open a context and draw some polygons in it" is broken. Maya doesn't work. 3DS Max doesn't work except in software mode. None of the fade modes works. Was that enough information? Fire up an OpenGL screensaver. They use funky draw modes. NONE OF THEM WORK.

"The G400 is the ONLY major card which doesn't run Q3Radiant."

Have you submitted a detailed bug report to Matrox on how to reproduce this problem?

Ok here goes.

Step 1: Run Q3radiant
Step 2: Watch Q3radiant crash.

Note - step 2 may take a while, or it may happen instantaneously.

And yeah I'm being sarcastic because many people have been reporting this bug to Matrox since q3radiant was released. It's been... oh... 6 months or so.

"If the G400 is primarily a professional card and NOT a gaming card, then Maya should work. 3DS Max should work. And SMP support should have come out of the box in the NT drivers."

Gee, these all WORK FINE FOR ME. Have you ever considered that maybe YOUR system is screwed up? Have you reported these problems to Matrox? I haven't tried Dungeon Keeper so I can't comment on that.

Really? Maya and 3DS Max work in hardware accelerated mode? When running dual processors? Under Windows 2000? And the NT drivers supported dual processors out of the box for you? Do you live in an alternate universe where history ran a different course or are you just lying for the sake of contradicting me?

If you can magically make professional modeling apps run in hardware mode on your G400, we would ALL like to know how you did it, since NOBODY else can make it happen. If you can play Quake3 in SMP mode we'd all like to know how to do that as well! If you have "magic drivers" that materialized out of thin air, please tell us about them now.

"And it's not like they ever made a 100% ICD for the G200, either."

Please describe what a 100% ICD is, and what makes the G200's less than 100%? (What's the percentage on the G200, 90%? 80%?)

For God's sake, are you daft? Ok, I'll bite. A 100% complete ICD is one which conforms to and accelerates all the OpenGL functions, as defined in the OpenGL API specifications (or at least accelerates all functions which the hardware supports, or else it must provide a seamless transfer through to software rendering). Any ICD which doesn't display certain OpenGL modes or effects at all, or which crashes or displays artifacting in certain modes, is incomplete.

In the case of the Matrox ICD, it is VERY incomplete. The only stuff they've implemented is the stuff needed to run Quake. And even that isn't 100% right yet.

"However, they seem entirely uninterested in making that ICD "complete", by any definition of the word."

Again, If you know how to define a "complete" ICD, please explain.

Already did.

Is it non-conformant?

Is Matrox's ICD non-conformant? Yes. Most definitely.

If so Matrox would LOVE to know about it. Sitting here in MURC WHINING and COMPLAINING will do you absolutely no good.

Bug reports have been submitted. Matrox tech support and driver teams know about all these problems. In addition, they're delineated on dZeus's page, and he has an agreement with the Matrox team that they will check his page at least twice weekly.

Please explain what you used to draw the conclusions that the OpenGL implementation on the TNT1 is better than the G400's. I would like facts backed up with numbers.

Ok. How's this: when I run 3DS Max in OpenGL mode, on the TNT it runs. On the G400 it doesn't. I don't need numbers when I have non functional programs.

Please explain how Matrox's ICD is something less than "FULL". In the process of your explanation you will doubtless be able to explain just what a "FULL" ICD is supposed to be.

Yup. Already did that. You are demonstrating phenomenal resistance to good sense right about now.

I don't mean for this to sound like a flame, Gurm, but really I think your arguments would be much more effective if you were able to back things up with facts, reliable reproduction scenarios that work on systems besides your own, and sent them to Matrox instead of posting them to the forums here.

It DOES sound like a flame, and as any regular on here could tell you, I'm the wrong person to flame. I am fully equipped with the Holy Asbestos Armor of M (tm) - thanks to the Acolyte, I have a large boomstick (tm), and I will roast your ass because I DO know what I'm talking about. Ok?

- Gurm

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Listen up, you primitive screwheads! See this? This is my BOOMSTICK! Etc. etc.

[Erich]

Stil: Take a look at dZeus G400 Windows 2000 bug page and you will see a hole bunch of bugs that needs to be fixed.

http://dzeus.student.utwente.nl/g400/

dZeus: Do you only have game bugs on you page?

[Stil]

By the way, in case there is any doubt whatsoever, I don't speak for Matrox in my posts to the forum.

Gurm: I will concede there has been a _general_ problem with SMP, which could account for the strange behavoir you are seeing with many of the apps. If Maya or 3DSMAX or Q3radiant work for you with a non-SMP system, but not in an SMP system, then it's not really accurate to say that the ICD doesn't work with these apps.

If SP1 from MS happened to cause all menus to display text backwards on SMP systems, is it reasonable to say that no applications work with SP1?

On the Windows platform you always create a wgl context, draw and then destroy the context when you are done. I don't think there are any other "modes" you can use.

If by OpenGL "mode" you are distinguishing between display lists, immediate mode, and vertex arrays, well I don't know any of these or any combination of them that aren't working to spec. I'd be interested in hearing about an API call or series of calls that don't produce the expected output.

As far as conformance goes, you are dead wrong. The ICD, at least the WHQL-certified ones, and most likely the beta releases, are ALL conformant. They have to be or Microsoft cannot stamp them with WHQL-certification.

Also, just a nit-pick, there is a difference between OpenGL-conformant and OpenGL-compliant. You probably shouldn't use them interchangably.

I still don't have an example of a blend mode, texture mode, depth compare function, etc. that is causing lock-ups or artifacts.

Really, I don't think I am resisting good sense here. Maybe I'm defending Matrox in a forum designed to bash them, but I'm willing to play devil's advocate. If you compare today's ICDs with the ones we released a year ago, or even with the last release I don't think you can honestly say you don't see a BIG improvement.

[dZeus]

Erich, most of the bugs listed I encountered while using games and stuff in win2k myself, and some are send in by others. However, I do not get many reports about professional programs.

And there is another issue:
I test most of the bugs myself, because it would be silly to put up bugs I got send in by email, that do not turn out to be bugs in the end. Therefor I also need to test bugs showing up in professional programs, and I need to get hold of them to test them. With most things this is no problem, since I am living on a university campus (can you say campus network? ;-). However, if an application is not used by students at all, it might be impossible to get hold of. FOr bugs in those applications, I am dependent on the reports sent in by others. If, say, 3 people report the same bug, then it's quite safe for me to list it on the page without being able to reproduce it.

I know that there are, or have been (in 5.10) problems with the following applications, not listed on my page yet:
- q3radiant
- some professional 3d apps like Maya and 3ds
- CounterStrike

I also have to test the new UT version that fix the z-buffer thing, and I have yet to test the new MTST util for it's effects on the clipping and stuff in q3a

[dZeus]

just tested the MTST util, and "Optimise OpenGL for accuracy" fixes all the shadow problems in q3a... however, surprisingly it doesn't fix any of the other problems in q3a (clipping, texture flashing and coloured dots on stairs)

[Gurm]

*sigh* Ok here goes...

By the way, in case there is any doubt whatsoever, I don't speak for Matrox in my posts to the forum.

We know.

If Maya or 3DSMAX or Q3radiant work for you with a non-SMP system, but not in an SMP system, then it's not really accurate to say that the ICD doesn't work with these apps.

Ah yes. But since 3DSMax, Q3Radiant, and Maya refuse to run on ANY system with a G400 in it, that indicates that the ICD doesn't work with these apps.

I'd be interested in hearing about an API call or series of calls that don't produce the expected output.

Well, whatever calls the above programs make, they don't work. Period. And if you want to see some BAD ICD action, download the OpenGL screensaver called "Euphoria". Run it. Have a good laugh. Daikatana does the same thing - it's some blend mode that just utterly fails. That's just a really blatant example. More pertinent are the OpenGL screensavers and programs that just don't run hardware accelerated because the ICD won't let them.

As far as conformance goes, you are dead wrong. The ICD, at least the WHQL-certified ones, and most likely the beta releases, are ALL conformant. They have to be or Microsoft cannot stamp them with WHQL-certification.

Also, just a nit-pick, there is a difference between OpenGL-conformant and OpenGL-compliant. You probably shouldn't use them interchangably.

Ok. However, BOTH conformance AND compliance require that OpenGL apps not produce black screens or crash unexpectedly or lock up the computer. Since we have apps that do that, the ICD is therefore neither conformant NOR compliant.

Really, I don't think I am resisting good sense here. Maybe I'm defending Matrox in a forum designed to bash them, but I'm willing to play devil's advocate. If you compare today's ICDs with the ones we released a year ago, or even with the last release I don't think you can honestly say you don't see a BIG improvement.

No, we understand. This is a Matrox ADVOCACY forum. We LIKE our G400's. We do, however, lament their shitball ICD's. And always have to one degree or another.

Look, here's the ICD I _want_... ok?

I want to fire up 3DS Max and turn on hardware OpenGL and have it... surprise... just work. I want to run my OpenGL screensavers and have them display correctly, in hardware! I want to play Q3 without artifacting, lockups, or glitches. In short, I want an ICD that just runs. I'm willing to accept a framerate hit. I'm NOT willing to accept continued insistence that it DOES work when for EVERYONE in this forum is DOESN'T.

Seriously, run the stuff I talked about. Fire up Q3radiant. It WILL crash. Fire up Euphoria. It WON'T display. Run Daikatana... the cutscenes are unbearable. Play Q3 in SMP mode and the machine WILL lock up. Try to turn on hardware OpenGL in 3DS Max or Maya and the machine WILL crap out. Once you've tried all those things, if they magically work for you then we would LOVE to know how you did it.

- Gurm



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Listen up, you primitive screwheads! See this? This is my BOOMSTICK! Etc. etc.

[rdr]

I haven't had any problems with the OpenGL drivers. I can run 3DSMax and Q3radiant just fine on my G400. I don't have Maya so I dont know about that one.

I mean, if these programs really didn't work don't you think reviewers would notice? No one would buy the hardware!

Maybe it's a problem specific to your system.

[Rob M.]

rdr, you're the 2nd person I've seen who's claimed no difficulties with q3radiant. The majority of us have random crashes while using it.

I have a feeling there are different revisions of the g400, I personally have 03h as reported by powerstrip, and this revision will NOT, under any circumstance, run q3radiant. I just got my hands on 3dsmax, it'll be crashing my computer soon enough, I'm sure.

To find out your chip revision, go to www.entechtaiwan.com and download powerstrip (it's free). Go to Advanced Options/Graphics system information/windows/details and then scroll down to Silicon Revision.

As for no one noticing, they do! Look closely at some of those benchmarks out there. This is just 1 example, i've seen many.. And most reviews don't even bother with obscure applications like q3radiant, or ones that general public don't generally use like 3dsmax.

[This message has been edited by Rob M. (edited 03 August 2000).]

[rdr]

Just out of curiosity, I went and downloaded that Euphoria screen saver from 3dfiles.com. It also works great (and looks real cool thanks for mentioning it!).

I dunno man...

[C=64]

Rdr, all I can assume is you're either trolling, incompetent, or one of the luckiest men alive.

Twice I've seen you post claims of being able to run programs that Gurm has stated as "broken", despite Gurm's fervent claims otherwise.

While Gurm and I may have had disagreements in the past, I have nonetheless found him to be honest and knowledgable. Yet, your claims are attempting to demonstrate him as anything but.

So... I went ahead and download the Euphoria screen saver myself. Personally, I hate silly little frills like screen savers, but I think a fellow's integrity is well worth the minor inconvenience. And guess what? It does EXACTLY what Gurm states. It does NOT function properly, unless you claim the occasional scanline showing broken bits of color as desirable.

I would go to the trouble of grabbing q3radiant, as well, but I see little point in catering to your pestering any further. If Gurm says it's broken, I'm going to believe him.

Who knows, maybe your just exceptionally lucky. Perhaps you do, indeed, have a better revisions of the G400 then the rest of us poor, poor slobs. But, being the pessimist that I am, I truly doubt it.


(a really annoyed) C=64


p.s. Now that I think of it, I'd almost PREFER that rdr has a higher revision board that's free of all this OpenGL nonsense. Then, my humiliation would be complete: I'd have shoddy software AND shoddy hardware.

[Stil]

Gurm:

I guess my flamesuit isn't strong enough for the heated discussions here!

Send me a private email: stiletto_the_wise@yahoo.com

I'd like to help get these apps working on your system because really they all should be working just fine. I searched a few of your past posts but couldn't find a description of your system. Could you send that too? Most important being what video card, powerdesk version, O/S, and CPU you are using, and whether or not you are overclocking anything.

[Gurm]

I also have an 03h. It would be very nice indeed if this were a silicon issue, now wouldn't it?

Of course that would be a nightmare for Matrox - 'cause we would all demand (and justifiably slow) a trade-in for a board that works!

As for rdr, I don't buy it. Nobody can make that Euphoria screensaver work. Or Q3Radiant. Or Quake3 in SMP mode! I'm taking my argument with Stil private, but I'll let y'all know (in a polite manner) where it goes.

- Gurm

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Listen up, you primitive screwheads! See this? This is my BOOMSTICK! Etc. etc.