Tom's Hardware guide: Matrox G450

[Randy Simons]

Well, what do you think after reading my story?

Since I have a matrox card, it must be clear that I don't listen to snobbish marketing, nor do I want that to happen.

[HollyBerri]

Just my 2 cents...

I was reading Tom's when he got bought by nVidia, and it was obvious to me, even as a newbie. At the time he was also overwhelmingly pro-Intel, come hell or high water-- I'm surprised to hear that that's changed, but then again, I no longer follow the site. His biases got too overwhelming to give me the information I needed about all the available hardware.

Geez. Next thing, somebody's gonna be saying that Sharky's info and reviews are omens from on high....

btw, Rimfaxe, I know you've said you're sorry twice, so I'm not blasting you again. But fyi, yes, Ant <u>IS</u> the MURC. This is absolutely his playground, created, owned and operated by him. We are the MURC <u>membership</u>, and I admit that without the 7000 of us, this place would be pd boring, but without Ant, it would be <u>nothing</u>....poof, zippo, zilch, nada.

And (morphing over to the rubank issue) <u>Ant</u> holds himself responsible for our conduct on this playground, and appoints moderators to implement his vision of what his site will be. So I don't really see how an administrator can be held "not responsible" for what is posted on his site.

What does it mean to be the Admin, then? Just the guy who cashes the checks from nVidia?

------------------------
Holly

[The PIT]

Rob M look at the last part of your quote.
"but by no means is it able to run over the competition from NVIDIA".

[Rob M.]

Gurm Had This to say:
Everyone knows (and this isn't just a MURC thing) that the G400 has THE BEST 2D IMAGE QUALITY, PERIOD.

Yet when Tom talks about it he says things like "G400's display quality is the best. But since everything else about the card sucks, and since nVidia is 99% as good now, go nVidia!".

I've set up a tnt2 m64 no-name brand card through a vga splitter to a .20 dpi 19" Samsung monitor. Now I'm sure If I hooked up a g400max beside it, directly to the same type of monitor, I'd notice a big difference, just like I see the difference when I run a rage 128 at 1600x1200 on this computer instead of my MAX. However, the tnt2 m64 still looks good to me. I certainly wouldn't be looking for something that would give better image quality if I had never heard of a g400. My point here is that if it requires a side-by-side comparison, then I certainly wouldn't offer it as a major reason to go choose brand M over brand N unless my review was targetting a niche market.
My point? IF you don't like Tom's because his reviews aren't targetted for your interests, fine. Don't diss his credibility for it though.

I mean, really. He's so biased it's not funny.

oops.

And yes, 6 months out of every year he's right, because it's within 3 months of an nVidia product release, and they've yet again made their chips run silly fast with no regard for quality.

silly fast enough to do fsaa at speeds faster than a g400 can do without. Hmm. 2d quality or FSAA. Tough choice for a gamer.

Their drivers crash on a regular basis, but Tom neglects to mention this as well. He simply quietly uses the best Detonators available - usually 6 months old or so.

You know, if Tom had done his benchmarks in the radeon review with the detonator 1 driverset, he'd have found even then that the geforce was faster than the Radeon. The detonator 2 driverset seems to be targeted towards increasing stability, sacrificing speed. Det 3's are a compromise between 1 and 2. Personally I'd kill for driver selection nvidia users enjoy, if matrox was more like them, maybe I'd even get a driverset that actually works with quake3. People in who live in glass houses...

I must say gurm, you must have to wear some pretty strong glasses in order to see straight in a world that is so warped around you.


Come on guys, tell me, how many early Athlon reviews did you see without Intel benchmarks? If Tom didn't compare the Radeon to the GF2, then what's the point of doing benchmarks on it at all?

In fact, if I were doing the review, I'd have said a lot more than 'Nvidia is still close'. In fact, even if the Radeon was still faster than the GF2, I'd still buy the GF2. Why? Drivers. I know people here know how important that can be.

Tom was pro-Intel, until the Athlon came out? Why? Intel certainly wasn't paying Tom to tell everyone how to overclock their cpus, it was because Intel simply had a better processor. Even if Intel lost in some benchmarks, they won in the most important ones, because the underlying technology was there.

Nvidia is the Intel of the graphics industy, an industry that still has yet to find an Athlon. Right now, if someone did a review on ANY video card, and doesn't come to the conclusion that the GF2 isn't the best card in the high-end 3d graphics arena, then I'd think that reviewer was biased/bought out/etc.

[Rob M.]

Originally posted by The PIT:
"but by no means is it able to run over the competition from NVIDIA".
Theres only one way you can read this, Nvidea is better.
Fair enougth the article you quoted begins saying the Ati is equal or better but then finnishes with that sentance.

Look. Let's make it simple, maybe you don't fully understand English.

"is able to run over the competition" = it is considerably better

" is NOT able to run over the competition" = it is NOT considerably better

Notice that a product that is not considerably better can certainly still be better.

[Greebe]

Rob, two year old technology compared to todays = clueless twit boy!

[Brian R.]

Rob - Does not beat nVidia by alot.

Check

[The PIT]

Not understanding English? You forgot the first bit of the sentance..

but by no means is it able.

Which means that it isn't the best.

I can see your learning the method of quoting though. By that I mean leaving out the bits that don't suit you.

Now if you orginally quoted like this

Without a doubt ATi has a reason to still be standing tall after further proof that it's now shipping a leading edge product capable of matching and at times surpassing the industries best. The things to keep in mind here is that the Radeon may be our overall choice for best consumer graphics solution.

Leaving out the last bit we wouldn't have much to argue over. But you're learning quick.

Time to re-learn your english old chap.

[Rob M.]

Greebe, you're right, it makes no sense for someone to recommend two year old technology to today's, that's why Tom should say "Matrox is the best in 2d quality but nvidia is 99.9% as good, Go nvidia!" as gurm complained about.

As for arguing what Tom is recommending, tell me he's saying nvidia is better here.

I personally like the Radeon, which is mainly due to the elegant 'HyperZ'-feature with the stupid name. ATi has shown that the memory bandwidth issue can be tackled in a different way than with pure brute force. It's like a light and fast sports car with a much better fuel consumption thanks to smart technology.

Radeon is indeed up there with the top crop when it comes to 32-bit performance and the chip comes with a wealth of new 3D features. Additionally you get the best integrated video, DVD and HDTV solution that money can buy right now. What is NVIDIA supposed to say? 16-bit color is more important than 32-bit color? I don't think so, since it was NVIDIA who told us how important 32-bit color is back in 1999 when 3dfx's Voodoo3 was unable to support that.

I am pretty sure that Radeon's performance will further improve once the drivers have matured a bit. I certainly look forward to the luxurious 'All-In-One' Radeon that's supposed to be released in early fall of this year. The SDR Radeon might mix up NVIDIA's GeForce 2 MX sales as well, because it is meant to offer performance that's close to DDR Radeon for a rather low price.

As I already said, I like the Radeon. I like it because I prefer intelligent technology to brute force. That's why I also prefer a Porsche 911 Turbo to a Dodge Viper.

and if you think I'm mis-quoting, you can read his entire conclusion here. And this is the wrap up I quoted from. If you read it, it's clear Tom is recommending the Radeon over the GF2

Pit:
"but by no means is it able"
"but there is no way it can"
"but it can't"

Three ways of saying the same thing in my book. I don't see how you jump from
"but by no means it is able" to
"but it isn't the best".

In fact the statement isn't even comparitive, all it's saying the card can't DO something and that something is "run over the competition"

[This message has been edited by Rob M. (edited 16 December 2000).]

[The PIT]

Rob M
You're missing the point.
First he starts by saying that the Ati is the best and he finnishes the paragraph by saying that it can't beat Nvidea.
I just pointed out this out. You then decided to quote again missing the first bit of the last sentance because it suited you. You also said I don't understand english. Sorry I am english born and bred.
You got to look at the whole paragraph understand it and then notice the contradiction at the end.
Theres no jumping from one conclussion to the other the last bit still says Nvida is better than Ati over all.

[Greebe]

Rob M, you're about as brite as Galvin! Stop dissecting everything and read it as it is intended to be read. The way you're going about it you can't see the forest from the trees! Geesh

[Rob M.]

C'mon, think about it for a few seconds.

If Tom was writing a review saying he recommends the card, only to then turn around and say Nvidia is still better, don't you think he'd explain himself just a little? Instead he follows up the last line I quoted with "I still cannot see myself advising anyone to drop his or her GeForce2 for this product unless they greatly value the other Radeon specific benefits".

This line is reinforcing his idea that the Radeon is better, but by much - buy it, but don't sell your Geforce2 for it.

[Himself]

I think Pabst is deliberately bipolar (at least) is his biases to generate hits for his page. He is has strong opinions that change constantly, you could say they average out over time but that is not the same thing as being unbiased.

[rugger]

I am going to throw more petrol on the fire.

The G450 is a really sucky card for gaming, at least compared to more recent and afforadble offerings from ati and particularly nvidia.

I have never seen a 21-inch monitor in anything I have done, and I have not seen anybody who seriously considers running their monitors at 1600x1200. Image quality at extremely high resolutions is simple not very important when most people are stuck with 15 and 17 inch monitors.

Dualhead, while cool, is simply not very important for game playing. For business use, dualhead makes sense for some things, since they can afford the extra monitor.

From personal experience with my G400, the 3d part of the drivers suck. There are cracks between polygons on most games I play on the G400, both OpenGL and Direct3d. The OpenGL driver is STILL not perfect, after 2 years of development. I mean, the G400 is an OLD card, the drivers should be mature, bug-free and fast by now. G400 driver development is even more depressing than mozilla development, because it doesn't appear to be going anywhere.

I cannot verify whether the review correctly tested the card, or judged it capibilities correctly (emphising it's 3d weakness over its useful strengths), but the conclusion he made is correct. This card sucks for gamers, but is a good buisness card.

PS. Tweak3d's review sickens me. It just sounds like an advert for the G450, simply skiming over the shortcomings of the G450 while detailing the strengths of it. I might as well read the product info from matrox's site.

[Wombat]

I have never seen a 21-inch monitor in anything I have done, and I have not seen anybody who seriously considers running their monitors at 1600x1200. Image quality at extremely high resolutions is simple not very important when most people are stuck with 15 and 17 inch monitors.





Fine, then maybe Matrox isn't for you. I have a 19" monitor at home, and 21" at work. It makes quite the difference. Fuzzy text = headache, and that's one reason why I keep my G400 around.