Announcement

**Greebe** · 3 July 2002, 07:32

Are you sure it will create further confusion in others... besides yourself? Regardless of what you deem as an error, and or it was just a typo, Parhelia does support both FAA and FSAA modes, thus your correction is negated.

**Ryu Connor** · 3 July 2002, 07:36

Regardless of what you deem as an error, and or it was just a typo, Parhelia does support both FAA and FSAA modes

Did I say it was not a typo? I also seem to recall having mentioned that Parhelia does FAA and FSAA several times in this thread.

Are you sure it will create further confusion in others... besides yourself.

This statement seems suddenly poignant.

**Greebe** · 3 July 2002, 07:52

No I didn't say you thought it was a typo... just that you concluded that he used incorrect terminology. I precluded that it was possibly a typo, but all in all that still negates your correction. Hense my responce.

...and yes I will make this as painful as possible. But do not think that I am in complete dissagreement with all that you have said. You do know your stuff, which is nice for a change. But when addressing the edge shimmering which this person wanted know if 16xFAA would reduce you answered up in an incorrect presumption in what you believed wouldn't address the cause of the problem. Loosy termed yes I can see how this happened, thus why I called you on it. Nothing more nothing less

Now take a deep breath... B R E A T H E repeat...

**Ryu Connor** · 3 July 2002, 08:10

But when addressing the edge shimmering which this person wanted know if 16xFAA would reduce you answered up in an incorrect presumption in what you believed wouldn't address the cause of the problem.

You act as if I have dismissed the possiblity that what the user was describing was edge based shimmering AKA jaggies on the far horizon. I have not. In the same instance though, you seem to strongly believe that it is edge based shimmer, but really have provided no proof of that and the users own posts supports the very conclusion I have continued to solicit.

I can look at the technological differences between the AA methods of the V5 and GeForce 3/4 and make an educated assessment based upon those fact as to what he is seeing.

I have provided multiple links to white papers, article, and pictures conclusively detailing that edge based AA cannot help texture shimmer. Furthermore I have provided the details that the V5 RGSS FSAA method is not superior to the GeForce 3/4 method of multisampling in the edge quality of it's output.

Based upon the error being described, which is shimmering when using a GeForce 3/4 and no shimmering when using a V5 it doesn't take a leap of faith to determine what exactly is being seen.

As the V5 will fix texture shimmer and the GeForce 3/4 will not. The V5 and the GeForce 3/4 correct jaggies on far horizons with near equal efficiency, therefore it is illogical to state that what he is seeing is jaggies on the far horizon.

FAA is an edge based solution and therefore suffers the same fate as the multisampling method of the GeForce3/4. Even Matrox's own whitepaper details clearly that the Parhelia FAA does not touch textures. Meaning that it clearly cannot help texture shimmer.

I have with good intentions made the concession that what the user has described could in fact be something other than texture shimmer. I do not believe that what he is describing is jaggies in the far horizon, nonetheless making the concession is a gracious thing to do. As I do not presume to always be correct.

Within the same coin flip though, it is only fair to remind you that none of us - Rags, Kruzin, you, or myself - have directly seen what the user is seeing. The information he provided to this forum on the other hand does provide some rather clear details, which hit upon known limitations in AA methods between two different series of cards.

The coincidence is too great and therefore I see no reason to retract my stated conclusion.

**Greebe** · 3 July 2002, 09:53

Greebe reaches in his pocket, whips out a pin and pops your bubble.

Talk about a long winded airbag, lordeee guy you're the the newby around here and yes I can fairly assess what he is describing and I don't have to completely speculate based on other products can or cannot do, you see (look at my sig) I do indeed have a Parhelia.

anywho...

Yes dear (as a man calls to his wife) you're right (about everything

and I am wrong (pffffffff)

**Dr Mordrid** · 3 July 2002, 10:05

Yup....a card in the case trumps all the speculation in the world

Dr. Mordrid

**Allankyoto** · 3 July 2002, 10:25

oh hello again! I'm the guy that started this chaos so I just want to clarify a bit.

Basically I have a Geforce 3 and I never use antialiasing even though I thought I would use it all the time when I bought the card. I could go more into whether I think the problem is really texture shimmering or edge shimmering but I don't think there is much need.

I just want to know how much better the Parahelia's anti-aliasing is versus the Geforce 3/4. Is it really good enough to leave on all the time or will I end up just opting for higher resolutions again?

I think a while back someone (Reverend??) posted up a movie that showed AA on a Voodoo 5 versus non at all. It was great to watch. The real effects of AA can't be seen that well in a single screenshot. It's seeing it in motion that is impressive.

I guess what I really need to do is to head off to a store that is demoing the card to see it for myself.

**Ryu Connor** · 3 July 2002, 10:31

I guess what I really need to do is to head off to a store that is demoing the card to see it for myself.

That's probably the best choice.

**Greebe** · 3 July 2002, 10:52

I do now that they have Parhelia's on display in Akihabara. Sasq was there about a week ago and saw them being demo'd

**[Ch]amsalot** · 3 July 2002, 11:08

Sooo....

At the risk of having everyone slap their foreheads in anguish...

Can someone explain to me, in english, what multisampling is???

[ducks the tomatoes]

;-)
-[Ch]ams

**Kruzin** · 3 July 2002, 11:14

It's when you go to a large lunch buffet, and try a little taste of each dish.

**RC Agent** · 3 July 2002, 12:13

Originally posted by Kruzin
It's when you go to a large lunch buffet, and try a little taste of each dish.

Wait, wait a minute..... isn't that SuperSampling?? lol.

**Greebe** · 3 July 2002, 13:08

Supersampling is when they lay down the speed bumps at the buffet when they see your car pull up in the parking lot!

**jkakaley** · 3 July 2002, 13:45

Originally posted by [Ch]amsalot
Can someone explain to me, in english, what multisampling is???

the attached file is a quote straight from nVidia

Attached Files

image1.jpg (73.5 KB, 30 views)

**Ryu Connor** · 3 July 2002, 13:52

It's when you go to a large lunch buffet, and try a little taste of each dish.

Reminds me of sushi. Mmm, sushi.

Can someone explain to me, in english, what multisampling is???

GeForce 3 and 4:

Look at it this way. Supersampling and Multisampling are identical. If you understand how a RGSS or OGSS work, then you understand the building process of multisampling as well. The difference comes with what each method does with textures.

Supersampling does a texture read for every subpixel read. So in 4X it makes four subpixel reads and four texture reads. Multisampling make one and only one texture read per subpixel group. So in 4X it makes four subpixel reads and one texture read. That single texture read is then applied to all four subpixels.

Because there is only one texture read it doesn't receive the benefit of being sampled multiple times as in supersampling, which would provide a boost to visual acuity. The end result of multisampling is that subpixels become more accurate and the textures remain untouched. We get flatter edges and better performance.

Does that help?

Announcement

Shimmering

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