P750 Review

[ganyaik]

Yep, I was thinking on the same thing, but that's a GF4MX. That shouldn't be _that_ powerful. Or am I wrong?

[Maggi]

maybe both were assisting each other and rendering half a screen ... ROFL

[diewlei]

Originally posted by Maggi
maybe both were assisting each other and rendering half a screen ... ROFL

LOL...

SLI lives on!!!

[ganyaik]

Maybe that's why M has issues with NF2. They cannot decide which scanlines are rendered by which card.

[Nappe1]

Mediaman, could you rip off the heat sink temporalily? I am interested if the chip is packaged same way as Parhelia, or perhaps on FCPGA package? (like cpus.) if it is on FCPGA, then they have used newer revision of parhelia core with bunch of fixes. (banding, AGP 8x support, new Memory Controller, fixed FAA with stencils, etc.)

[ganyaik]

then they have used newer revision of parhelia core with bunch of fixes. (banding, AGP 8x support, new Memory Controller, fixed FAA with stencils, etc.)

Why are you so sure that these fixes are included in the new core? Raw guess? Or...

[GNEP]

Nappe1 is good at digging around for info on 3d chips/companies/etc.m He is (well ) known for it...

[treilanin]

That's good to hear... hopefully they will have a decent 2D Linux driver that supports multimonitor... and a passable if not decent 3D implementation so I can finally ditch this GF4 and go into Linux with multimonitor goodness for when I program

[ganyaik]

Yep, Mediaman. Coyuld you please do a test if the same FAA symptoms to those of Parhelia's appear with this Mill P750?

[Mediaman]

Banding:

Matrox is aware of reports of banding issues. Many users have reported it but it hasn't been able to be tracked down to a repeatable action. EG: All xyz motherboard users with driver ver. abc and card rev 123 have this happen.

It's a gremlin.

Nevertheless I checked out the banding issue on my system...didn't see it. Then I talked with Matrox to have them follow up on it from their end. They have more extensive reports on the banding reports with the Parhelia.

Trust me...they'll want to find it if it has a chance of existing. I spoke with their driver techs who test on several platforms and they looked for it...they didn't see it either and they know what to look for.

IGP.

The A7N8X doesn't have IGP therefore it cannot assist the Millennium GPU with the task of graphics. I do have a blue sky theory on why the benchmarks on the NFORCE2 platform were so good.

I know there is an "issue" (Don't you love that word....lol) between the NFORCE2 chipset and the Matrox card. Basically it would not allow Direct3D apps to run. Pull up DXdiag.exe and test DirectDraw...all is well...hit the Direct3D tests and ...buh-bye. Freeze then auto reboot.

Games would not run...not even make it to the load splash screen.

I can only suspect that 3DMARK 2001 SE was able to run and create a score due to some quirk of programming in 3DMARK. It shouldn't have run at all because of the Direct3D situation but it did. That alleged glitch may have allowed the program to run and produce a score when it should never have done so.

To that end I pulled two different NFORCE2 boards and set them up. At each stage...OS installation....XP SP1 update...board drivers...video drivers...I exported the .NFO files to Matrox for them to look at what was happening at my end.

It should be pretty obvious what the culprit is from that and a cross check can be done.

Again...in manufactur-ese...."We are aware of the issue..." etc. etc. etc.

Do I think the NFORCE2 issue can be resolved? Of course I do. I think the numbers will be a bit better than on the KT400 and that will be due to the dual memory controller. Of course this will depend on the processor and type of memory but, guaranteed, always run the same MHz memory as the FSB on the processor.

A 2600+ with two by 256 MB DDR 333 will run just as fast as a 3200+ with a single 512 MB stick of PC2100.

Nappe1,

I'm fairly busy but I'll go have a look for you as soon as I can. I just love prying heatsinks off GPUs...

The PIT

Golden samples? I wondered how long it would take for someone to bring that up. That may have happened with certain manufacturers/retailers in the past but the ramifications are too great for a corporation like Matrox to do so. Reviewers would catch it and the bad PR resulting would do far greater damage.

I myself see many impressive scores on other sources with other products and I have a hard time reproducing them. 95% of the planet just plugs and plays. They don't adjust and tweak the bios to the "race car" level before benchmarking.

Product samples are pulled from the line and allocated to the PR departments to send out. I've had some arrive quirky and had to get a new sample. The "luck of the draw" that an off the shelf buyer gets.

From a marketing point of view...success is enjoyed till the next product that comes out eclipses you...but a mistake haunts you forever. I think the "golden samples" or tweaked versions don't exist...at least I haven't encountered one.


ganyaik


I'm fairly busy right now between real life and the site. As quickly as the system went up...it's been pulled down ready for the next product. Do I have more than one system going? Yup...but I can only seem to keep one up and running as the others have constantly changing parts for other reviews. Computer lab = chaos. lol.

I'd have to do some research to accumulate a list of Parhelia "glitches" and what caused them and then try to reproduce them on the P750. But right now I just finished the 3200+ and am leaving the country for a few days for my next product hoo haw.

[Maggi]

Very much apreciated feedback, Mediaman !

Originally posted by Mediaman
Banding:

Matrox is aware of reports of banding issues. Many users have reported it but it hasn't been able to be tracked down to a repeatable action. EG: All xyz motherboard users with driver ver. abc and card rev 123 have this happen.

It's a gremlin.
....

now this is very hard to believe for me, because I've seen it from the very beginning (and still do) on two Parhelias (one retail and one 'close-to-final-production" card)

for reproducing, you should set your desktop color to light gray and simply launch the system test that comes with PowerDVD (yes, 3D is not even needed) or use this little bunny demo

http://research.microsoft.com/downloads/download.asp?FUID=5ad82c0f-f9f3-4938-9b60-6f6aa4a0569d

Once any of the above apps is running, just have a look onto your plain DT background and maybe you could see 'pumping' luminosity.

To me it looks as if the "banding" appears as soon as you put some real stress onto the card ...

[Maggi]

oh yeah, one more thing ...

you probably won't see the "banding" when having VSync enabled

[ganyaik]

Mediaman: Thanx anyway. Have a safe trip!

[Mediaman]

Okay....

I just worked through the banding issue with Matrox to address your concerns. I thought is was important to get a quick response for you guys.

Matrox looked into the concern and says there are no banding issues with the P750. I can interpret that as a pretty official comment. I will follow up with the review sample to double check that. Other than that...Matrox is a very friendly company...once you get used to the "We are aware of the issue..." or "We have had reports of this and are looking into it..." or "The sun has been reported as going to rise tomorrow..." statements.

But this isn't much different from any other company I've worked with. lol.

Just for clarification on the banding issue....reports in many forums have noticed it with Parhelia in pretty specific instances. But as it is said here...with vsync disabled it won't be seen or with a change in the desktop color. Sort of like...if I stand on my head, say Matrox backwards three times and cross my eyes just right...I can see the banding. (I'm reminded of the "Doctor...it hurts when I do this...so don't do that" line)

Nevertheless it is forums like these that really help in increasing product quality. Manufacturers know that they have high standards to meet and you guys push that bar ever higher.


I'm going to toddle off back to my part of the wobbly web now. I feel like I've been on vacation.

[Chrono_Wanderer]

WOW! Great news! Thanks Mediaman! Have a safe trip!

Finally... no more banding issue I guess Matrox learned their lesson...

As for me, I am waiting for PII (Dropped the GFFX/R3x0 buying idea... gonna get a new rig next summer)