Does the Pope visit the MURC?

[ALBPM]

Ok, barbeque at Pauly's this weekend featuring BBQ'd Goat marinating in 3 day old scotch. Damn Goats anyway. Good thing he didn't get into my Glenlevit

Paul

[Jorden]

I hope no-one minds if I say "UP"

[HedsSpaz]

merchant2112,
I agree with you to a point. Many organized religions haved ended up corrupt. However, even the Catholic religion is actually starting to reform. The current pope is a very good man and he is working to make changes within the organized Catholic church. Although it will take much more drastic reform than the Catholic church can currently handle. Furthermore, compared to what the Catholic church was during medieval period this is nothing.

I don't however believe that all organized religions are corrupt the way you claim they are, you are makeing a blanket judgement that is unwarranted. Not all organized religions are out to control peoples lives, or even to force people to believe their doctrines. Assuming you read my above post, maybe you can get some idea of why I like my religion. My church offers complete freedom of choice, nobody will force you to believe the doctrines, they will simply offer them to you and let you decide. Further, questions are encouraged, if you have trouble understanding something, ASK! There is always an answer even if it may take a bit of work to figure out what it is.

This is just one example though. Have you ever heard of the Bahi faith? I don't actually know too much about them myself, but I have a little knowledge. Basically, they don't have an organized church in the same manner as everyone else. What they preach however is basically what the christian churches should be preaching about christian charity. They firmly believe in the love of the neighbor, and they practice just that. Every couple of years they get together and determine some project that they as an "organized" religion will work on. And Bahi groups all over the country will then proceed to work on that project until it is deemed that it has a good basis of support to continue withought the full backing of the church, not that they stop supporting it, it's just that they then decide on a new project to throw the bulk of their support behind.

So there are two examples of what I feel a religion/church SHOULD be. All I am really trying to point out here is that not all organized churches are corrupt and out to control the lives of it's members.


Ian

[Nuno]

I must confess I don´t visit the Soap Box too often, mostly because I don´t have the time. But I find this discution most interesting.
First of all, I´m catholic and a believer. I try to be open minded though.

You won´t believe how much of the the descriptions of those prophets (people who see god, angels, the virgin Mary) can fit the mental disorder Schizophrenia and how much the bible (specially old testament) is full of classical psichopatology descriptions.

Not trying to attack anyone, I´m not saying every prophet was a schizophrenic, or the bible is fake, far from it (remember, I´m a believer).

Just some food for thought.

[Himself]

IMO, anybody hearing the voice of God is obviously deranged and in need of help. The alternative theory being there exists a being that created this whole mess and goes around giving Joe Bloe play by plays from the future. The way I look at it, either God exists and is an idiot, or humans are generally screwed up animals that think way too much of themselves and will invent anything to placate their egos.

As for benign religions, well if people want to get together in groups and do good deeds to make themselves feel better, I don't have a problem with that. You'd figure they could do it without an excuse that's it's about a God, though. I think that kind of thing is dangerous fodder for the mentally ill to latch on to.

Most religions remind me of a kid that's been told to go out and play and instead spends all his/her time whining and knocking on the door wanting to get back in. I don't believe in any God that would create beings to sing back how great it is, and spend all their lives sucking up to it. Or if such a critter existed, why you'd care?

[HedsSpaz]

Thanks Nuno, now I feel guilty! I myself made some rather blanket statements about the catholic religion. I apologize if I offended anyone.

I haven't been trying to knock any individuals in my rants. Most Catholics I know don't actually express much of a die hard belief in much of the Catholic doctrine. I will however stick by my statements that there are a number of flaws in the Catholic doctrine which desperatley need to be remedied. And I am far from the first person to express problems with Catholic doctrine.

C.S. Lewis makes performs a wonderful analysis of what is wrong with the Catholic faith as well as outlines in a good understandable manner what the Christian faith should be about in <U>Mere Christianity</u>. It's a wonderful book and I would highly recomend reading it even if you only take it as a philosophical work.

Ian

[This message has been edited by HedsSpaz (edited 15 May 2000).]

motub: Just fixing your code, Ian... there's no UBB code for underline, so you have to use the HTML {&#60;u&#62;, &#60;/u&#62;}. No other changes . Holly



[This message has been edited by motub (edited 16 May 2000).]

[Gurm]

Hedspaz:

Don't go feeling guilty. Catholics are FINE people. Catholicism is a truckload of cow poop. VERY big distinction.

- Gurm

P.S. The current pope was a good man... before he became senile and incontinent.

------------------
Listen up, you primitive screwheads! See this? This is my BOOMSTICK! Etc. etc.

[Nuno]

Ian: don´t worry I was not offended in any way. I am Catholic by education. I just believe in a god, an higher entity, call it God, Jeova, Ala, E.T. you name it, and being catholic is just a way to be in touch an respect MY god, like I could be in almost every religion out there.

Gurm: may I ask what do you think about extremism and religion? You should temper more... Extremism, in any subject, is half-way to be wrong.

And the pope is not senile. He still is a very brigth man. He has Parkinson disease, that is mostly a motor disease, not psychical. His mental faculties are not affected. He´s all curved because he has serious sequels in the spine of being hit by a car in his youth. The driver ran away and abandoned him. And if he´s incontinent, that´s because he was forced to do a colostomy because of an intestinal tumor.
If any, people should respect him, not to make fun of him. Religion apart, he must be one of the most brave and determined man the history ever met.

[Jorden]

I agree with Nuno on that point, Jason.

But I still think people have a right to say what they think, even if they're wrong

I haven't been in a Catholic environment since long, even though friends of mine are Catholic.

What does Nuno think about the 3rd Secret of Fatima? It surely coincides again with Nostradamus and Ian's beliefs.

Jorden.

[This message has been edited by Jorden (edited 15 May 2000).]

[Jorden]

P.S: Forgive my ignorance, but what are the other 2 Secrets of Fatima? I haven't found much about them this weekend (too stressed out because of the things here in The Netherlands, Enschede, where I have a good friend living. She's okay though !! )

[HedsSpaz]

Jord,
I thought maybe I ought to clarify things a little bit. I'm don't really think this is what you thought but I figured I should clear it up anyway to stave off any possible future understanding.

So, the thing is, Swedenborg was not a prophet. He made no prophecies, and in fact said that such things were detrimental to the human race. Prophecies and miracles(more so with miracles than prophesies) in effect force people to believe in God, which takes away their freedom. Since God wants us to be eternally left free, these things no longer occur.

Basically, to give a lose description of Swedenborgs works it can be devided into 2 parts.

First, there is what is called the Arcana Coelestia(Latin, meaning Heavenly Secrets). Essentially, the Bible is a series of parables, like the New Testament parables of Jesus. The Arcana Coelestia say that there is an internal meaning to these parables and explains what that internal meaning is.

Most of the rest of Swedenborg's Writings explain various aspects of life, both on Earth and in Heaven, such as eternal marriage. It also includes an explanation of the creation and governance of Heaven and Earth.

I hope that clears a few things up.

Jord, you said you were going to pen some questions. I am more than happy to try and answer them if you want to shoot them my way. Although I may have just created some new questions for you. Sigh... This post is what I should have said the first time. I wasn't exactly clear the first time and I probably did sound quite the loony. It may also have seemed a little daunting. I hope this makes things a little more understandable.

Ian

[Elyas]

I've found myself wondering, as I've read through this forum, what people expect/hope for from religion. For me, religion is how I live my life, each day. I have beliefs about the world founded from a number of different foundations, which I examine and adapt constantly as I learn more. I do my best each day to live from these beliefs, and when I don't, try to figure out why I didn't. This is why I believe an organized religion that stresses individual freedom to find your own path is the most useful. I firmly believe there are an infinite number of personal "heavens", and that we determine ours through our life here on earth. We end up in the place where we are able to happiest. This is not to say that there is no reward/reason to live a good life, as the happyness from helping others is a much more lasting joy than the pleasure from doing evil. As long as you are doing your best to live by your ideals, you will end up alright

[Nuno]

Jorden:
The 1st Secret of Fatima had some theological interpretation, like the inevitabily of hell for the sinners. So it looks like hell must be for real . Others interpret it like a prophecy that it would be a great war and Portugal wouldn´t take part on it (WW2?).
The 2th secret was Russia being converted.

About the 3rd secret, I must confess I was not waiting that in any way. Despite beliving in Fatima, I must confess that I always doubted about the secrets - too much politics in the mix for Virgin Mary, you know? And undoubtly VERY usefull for the fascist regime propaganda at the time.

Now this third secret about a pope murder attempt and being rescued by divine intervention... man, the pope was shot in 1981 in the precise date and hour (13th May, 17h) the Virgin Mary had appeared in 1917. He wasn´t shot in the heart because at that time he was blessing the crowd and the bullet hit his hand (he has one finger paralised because of that). He was hit several times in the abdomen and the bullets didn´t hurt a single abdominal vessel. You know what´s the probablility of that hapenning? Very very scarce.

I don´t really know what to think. But it surely gave me some chills.

[This message has been edited by Nuno (edited 16 May 2000).]

[SCompRacer]

As long as there are no sacrifices or mass suicides, I think religion is great. They all have some basic rules about treating your fellow man right, don't they? But how you are taught has a profound effect on how you feel about it.

I attended Holy Cross Catholic school on Elizabeth Street in Joliet, IL from grade 1 through 6, back in the old days when Nuns taught. A Marine DI could even get a few pointers.

Get out of line or fool around in formation, going to class or church, would get you a slap or thrown against a wall. Screw around in class, it could be a ruler on knuckles, or a book atop the head from behind. Don't hit your notes in choir, you get hit. And don't dare question what you are being taught.

I peed my pants in first grade once cause a nun would not let me go to the bathroom cause she was teaching "religion." Then I got hit for making a mess. It may have been time to officially teach religion, but you got it all day anyway as it was tied into everything you learned.

I was an altar boy, and those days the masses were still in Latin. Let the priest hear you screw up a prayer and there was hell to pay afterward.

So my experience with religion was much like the Koehler method of dog training, pleasure or pain. While this may be an isolated, rare example, it did happen to me so I distanced myself from Catholic religion in 7th grade and never looked back.

All I know is when I saw that nun in the Blues Brothers waving that pointer around and hitting Elwood and Jake, it reminded me of the nuns that taught at my school.

[merchant2112]

Ian, I liked what little you said about your church. but I don't yet think it falls into the category of a major main stream organized religion (yet) like Catholics, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists etc....

I am an ex alter boy, and went to catholic school from 3rd grade on, was thought by nuns, etc I never intend to put any of my children though that crap.

SCompRacer
thanks for reminding me about my early days, (i may never get them out of my head now ;
)

[This message has been edited by merchant2112 (edited 16 May 2000).]