Does the Pope visit the MURC?

[Gurm]

Ok, folks. I am through pulling punches. You want to know how I feel about Catholicism? Let's see...

I've been to Catholic masses. Their funerals are almost letter-perfect to druidic rituals. Their theology is full of holes. Their answer, when asked about the holes, is to go ask the priest - who in turn directs you to ask the bishop, etc. etc.

They disregard their own Bible in favor of whatever the hell they've been told to think. Their entire system is flawed. Confessions? Priests? How about where it says in the Bible "no man can come to the father except through me"? How about other passages that say that you must talk to God yourself, and nobody else can do it for you?

The Catholic Church, as it currently exists, was founded in the 12th century (I may be off by 50 years, so sue me) because the Holy Roman Emperor (who wasn't Holy or Roman at the time, go figure!) couldn't control the people at all. They had no respect for him. So he contracted with the church of the day to make it a sin to disobey the Emperor. They also enacted dozens of other stupid laws and rules, and levied a tax (tithe) on the people.

As a member of a religion that can trace its roots back at LEAST 6000 years, I find it difficult to buy into any mamby-pamby 800 year old religion. Especially one that is so hypocritical.

Did you know that until about 20 years ago forks were an excommunicatable (sp?) offense? Yes, that's right - if you ate with a fork, you were of the devil. I don't know the reasoning - maybe "if the fingers God gave you aren't good enough..."

And now the Pope has abolished "Limbo". Well good for him, since it wasn't in the Bible to begin with. Oh, and guess what - neither is Purgatory. Oops! Was that a secret? Apparently, since when my wife was in Catechism (10 years ago) you weren't allowed to HAVE a Bible. If they caught you with a Bible you were punished. You were only allowed to read the books of Catechism.

Catholicism is just like a big ol' cult.

Nobody means it. I have yet to see a church filled with FERVENT Catholics. I see churches all the time that are filled to the brim with protestants, or Jews, or whatever that REALLY BELIEVE. You go to a Catholic mass, and all you have are people standing up, sitting down, doing the hokey pokey, turning around, and standing up and sitting down again. Mechanically. Like robots.

It is disturbing.

And for those of you who believe in the spiritual side of things... I can feel things. I can feel good and bad presences. I don't know if it's REALLY "spirits", or if it's just the "aura" of the place. Who knows? But I've never felt an EVIL presence in a Church - until I went to my Grandfather-in-law's funeral. That place felt DISEASED. Unholy, if you will.

I know, I'm babbling again.

And I want to stress that I don't hate Catholics - they're people, and I don't hate any people (unless they piss me off personally, hehe!). But you need to really mean it if you're going to spend that much of your life doing something. Honestly. And there are too many big fat holes in Catholicism.

Oh, and can someone explain Saints? Since the Bible specifically says in dozens of places that praying to anyone but God (Jesus, Holy Spirit, Trinity, whatever) sends you on an express train to hell, how is it that you can pray to Saints? Or to Mary?

- Gurm

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Listen up, you primitive screwheads! See this? This is my BOOMSTICK! Etc. etc.

[This message has been edited by Gurm (edited 16 May 2000).]

[merchant2112]

Yea baby, go get'em,

(I’m currently not partaking in any religion. but if I were to it would be wica or paganism (if anything.)

Catholic Church, Church of England ect..Were created "invented" to shut down paganism and wica because it is a religion that has NO central authority. That teaches you can worship any way you want to, and its main rule is basically do what you want but harm none (not even your self.)

Catholic religion, hum let me think Christmas (Yule) taken from wica, Satan described by the church as having horn's (to make people think worshiping pan and other horned pagan gods is bad.) Easter I believe is the summer solstice (also taken from paganism,) seems most catholic "holidays are celebrated on or near the old pagan holidays, I wonder why that is. Could it be so that the people would feel some familiarity with the old pagan holidays but still be under the control of "The Church”?

I wish one of my old buddies had not moved to Florida he used to study religions for the purposes of ripping apart the belief systems and showing the holes that require faith (and obedience) to overcome. He would have loved this post.

[ALBPM]

Has anyone seen my friggn goat he's been running around this thread since the Forums went down. at least he's stayed out of my good scotch

Paul

[SCompRacer]

So the Goats a male? Maybe we can narrow the search knowing that.

[This message has been edited by SCompRacer (edited 16 May 2000).]

[Himself]

How about this topic: Church in schools?

I am of the all or none camp, there shouldn't be one religion taught in schools. If a morals course can't be offered sans all the superstition about a higher being, then it should be about all religions. And by all I mean all equally, not 99% catholic and 1% look at all the primitives over there. I found going to a catholic school taught by "brothers", that religion class was basic cult indoctrination for the Catholic faith. I got higher marks for putting in the code phrase "love God" in my answers. After a while I didn't even bother to put my name on the test papers, I just made up names, still got credit though. I don't know what it's like in normal schools but the relief factor in getting out of there was intense, went back to a dance a year out and I was appalled at the uptightness in the air, you'd think it was a death camp. But maybe I'm just naturally evil and all the holiness repelled me.

[merchant2112]

ALBPM you like single malts or blended scotch ?

Himself , no teaching religion in school, they wouldn't do it right and teach all and the teacher would be bais to his or her own beleaves. so i say leave it out, (at lease in public schools.

[ALBPM]

I prefer single malt merchant.

Sorry guys, BBQ is postponed till I find the friggn goat...LOL

Paul

[HedsSpaz]

Ouch, Gurm! I was trying to avoid being that brutal, although I do agree with you.

Anyway, I'd like to make a couple of corrections on the historical growth of the Catholic church. Christianity, and in particular, what was to become the Catholic church, began shortly before the fall of the Roman Empire. The last three Roman Emperor's made huge advances for the legitamacy of Christianity. The very last emperor made it the official state religion, and outlawed paganism. Shortly after that the Catholic Church itself with the Pope as it's head came in to existence.

Many of you have made the observation that many christian holidays coincide with ancient Germanic, Nordic, and Celtic holidays. Indeed, the church did that on purpose, it made it much simpler to convert the "pagans" to christianity. The easiest way to convince the pagans to do what they wanted was to not actually force them to give up their traditions, just give them new christian meanings (btw, easter is the Vernal Equanox, not the Solstice).
So, the point is that christian holidays weren't exactly "taken from" pagan holidays, the pagan holidays were changed in order to convert the pagans.

As to the Church of England, that came into existence because of bickering between Henry VIII and the Pope. Henry wanted his marriage anulled, the pope couldn't do it becaue of political troubles(Martin Luther and Germany), and so England declared itself to be an empire. Henry, as an emporer now, was also the head of the church(roman tradition). He then declared that he was founding his own church. That is what became the Church of England. It had nothing to do with paganism, except for the fact that it eventually became strongly influenced by Luther and Calvin, both of whom the Catholics had declared to be heretics.

So, there's your history lesson for the day.

merchant,
I never said that my church was mainstream, in fact it is far from it. It's probably one of the smallest churches in the world. I'm not quite sure what that has to do with anything though. I'm glad that you like what I said though. My offers from before still and always will stand, if you ask, I will try and answer.

As for the Church/Schoo/State debate... I think I'd better leave that for another post. I have to go do some work now anyway.
For now I'll just say that Religion CAN be mixed with School/State in a very beneficial way, it's just a matter of finding that balance.

Ian

(I notice that I have the longest posts so far in this thread, I wonder if that says something about me? )

[Jorden]

It just so much tells me you don't have a thunderstorm approaching, Ian (And ripping out all those TV/Radio and phone-cables )

I already thought that Jason was a bit off by saying it was in the beginning to middle of the Roman Empire that they started turning people to Christianity. Doesn't Asterix tell of all those Romans asking for help from all those Pagan Gods? Not that the Gallician people didn't have enough Gods of their own


We might ask Pauly to change from goat to wild boar for the BBQ

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A little history about me, myself. When I went to nursery school, it was a protestant nursery, next door of the protestant church in Oosterhout (where I still live).

I must admit I don't remember much about that time, but memories start from going to the primary school. It wasa Roman Catholic Primary School, which did take on kids from other churches as well, if those kids didn't mind being thaught the same as the RC kids.

Well, we couldn't mind, but would our parents? They didn't. They took us (us = my brother and me) to Sunday School as well, before we were old enough to go to church itself.

I remember my fellow class-buds going to Communion and me being the only one not receiving a host from the priest. Not that I minded, I got a peppermint from my teacher
(Must be way better tasting than a host, right? )

All my schools after that thaught me RC stuff, for they were RC schools. I let go of the church anyway. Not going to church any more, but for funerals and weddings.

Would that make me a disbeliever, or one fallen down? I think not, for I still believe, but don't think one needs a church, or go to a church every Sunday to believe.

What about all those people going to Xmas mass, the only time of the year they show up in church? I'm clear about that: I don't go all year long, so why would I go then?

Jorden.

[HollyBerri]

Hey, Pauly...

I found your goat. May he stay here, please? I haven't had any horny, cloven-hooved avatars around in a while, and I've been lonely. He seems to like it here, too. At least his crooning sounds as he sits by my home altar are a nice musical accompaniment to my .... errrr, creative visualization .

Oh, and you and the Druids come by anytime. The goat does seem to miss the Scotch (I use rum, myself, but that's not his thing) and aside from pumping you guys for understanding of plants (some of my best friends are trees), I do feel that the main problem with paganism as I have experienced it is a lack of balance in the other direction-- so now it's all 'Goddess' this and 'Goddess' that, and the Horned One can just go jump.

Hmmmph! Not in my house....

As to prayer in the schools... hell, yes, people should be allowed to pray in the schools!!! But to do so themselves, according to their faith, not to have someone pray for them...

I mean, what does it say that supposedly 80% of Americans believe in God (yes, I know, but let's just take it as it's given, OK?) but to <u>act</u> as if you believe in God (whatever that means to you) by

• thanking/acknowledging It when good things happen;
• asking It for guidance or help when you need It; or in any way
• behaving as if this 'God' you supposedly "believe" in (oh, and do you "believe" in the air, as well? The Sun? Your piss?) is a real force that must be considered as a factor as we navigate through life

causes you to be looked on as some kind of greater or lesser crackpot. You have no idea how much that ticks me off, that people say "I believe in God," and then proceed to completely ignore it, as if saying so meant something all by itself, like some magic charm. I may be superstitious, but I'm not stupid!!!

{It ticks me off so much that I forgot to end the sentence with the list in the middle! }

I admit, the whole Catholic doctrine thing is a bit troublesome (especially for Catholics, who must try to follow all those rules). Having read the Malleus Malificarum, which made my jaw drop that anyone could kill thousands of people (excuse me, <u>women</u>, let's call it like it was) over such blatant idiocy ... and the Catholic Catechism, which I think I got to page 3 before I ran out to my mother saying "Surely they don't expect people to <u>believe</u> this!!!??" (My family was Catholic, but I was never confirmed and did not even hear about Confession until I was 9-- another jaw-dropper for me).

However, they sure know how to do ritual, and <u>that</u> I can appreciate.

Oh, and the saint thing? Read up on Santeria, and the syncretization of pagan gods.

Blessed be, y'all.

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Holly, who won't go to any "Heaven" run by a God who would send her to "Hell".

[This message has been edited by HollyBerri (edited 16 May 2000).]

[ALBPM]

No problem Holly, I'll send a bottle of single malt and some small shrubs....LOL

Well, so much for our BBQ

Paul

[Himself]

merchant2112,

It was actually a part of our terms of joining Canada in 49 that we would NOT be allowed to have public schools, if you can believe that. All schools were RC or varients of it. Just about every school here is Saint this or Brother that. Recently, the province had to get the constitution of Canada amended just to get the church from controlling all the schools, running all the school boards, hiring or firing teachers based on their religious beliefs etc. Took a few years and they are still appealing the decision. Nasty buggers.

[Helevitia]

There are 2 things I've learned about religion and I can't remember either one of them Had something to do with wooden spoons and standing on your head for 12 hours. Let me know if anyone gets this combination to work.

Dave

[HollyBerri]

Probably a good thing, Dave.

I'd try the spoon thing... but how would I know if it had worked, anyway?

Should I be looking for a "becoming a 50-foot tall titan with flames lancing from my fingertips at my merest whim" effect, or more of a "knowledge of the deepest secrets of the known Universe" thing?

Or will maybe birds just fly out of my ass or some such?

At least people would pay to see that... (hey, I'm an American, you know how we are )

-------------------------
Holly

[Jord]

New way of collecting money for your move, Holly?

I'll pay