Today is a sad day...

[Joel]

for those of us who are pround of our southern heritage.

home-news.excite.com/news/ap/000701/12/news-confederate-flag

When will ppl wake up and realize that the Cival War was not about slavery.

Joel

[This message has been edited by Joel (edited 01 July 2000).]

[Helevitia]

It's unfortunate that certain people have decided to make this flag a symbol of racial discrimination. I always liked the look of the confederate flag and always wanted to use it here and there for different things, but decided not to because of the racial thing.

Dave

[Joel]

Yeah it is. I just hate that the symbols of my heritage are being taken away just because someone else sees it as something other than what I do. I have a fifth great uncle who was a very prominent leader during that time and for me to remember and honor him I am being told is wrong and that the whole Civil War thing was only about hate and bigotry. That is bullshit!!!! The Civil War was about economics. The south was tried of the rich north telling them what to do without proper representation. The release of slaves by Abraham Lincoln was not an act of kindness or justice. It was a way to try and hurt the southern plantation owners. The northern plantation owners had to release their slaves too but if you dig deep enough you will find that they were compensated for their loss by the government where the southern owners were not. It just amazes me that a small organization like the National Association of Always Complaining People are willing to take rights away from others and then complain about their rights being violated.

Joel

BTW: That fifth great uncle was none other than the President of the Confederacy himself Jefferson Davis. So you can see why I feel so strongly about this.

[Dilitante1]

If memory serves me correctly, the south at that time claimed that the black population were property AND wanted to use the number of blacks to influence the number of representatives that the southern states held in the House of Representatives. The northern states said that was not possible (unconstitutional)and southern states used that issue with others to declare they were oppressed by the existing unity of states and declared that they no longer had to abide by the Union (and the Constitution) rules.

The flag has stood for many things and unfortunately hatred is among them.

This is written to bring up relevant facts, NOT to insult you or your heritage.

BTW the link is no good....

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I'm not just a MURCer, I'm also a client!



[This message has been edited by Dilitante1 (edited 02 July 2000).]

[Rags]

Dil,

That's a bit of twisting of the facts, but I am NOT going to get into the debate, it never ends up pretty. The link is fine, too.

Rags



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Partnership for an idiot free America

[Dilitante1]

this is where I end up hitting that link:
http://www.rdc1.sfba.home.com/market/
Not Found

The requested object does not exist on this server. The link you followed is either outdated, inaccurate, or the server has been
instructed not to let you have it. Please inform the site administrator of the referring page.

As for the rest of it, as I said I am not trying to open any ancient wounds, just bringing up a fact or two.
NUFF SAID

[Joel]

Maybe it only works for @Home subscribers. But what it is, is an article about the removal of the Confederate Flag in South Carolina.

And as a true southerner with a true southern heritage I do not see the flag as a symbol of hate.

Also I think you have things turned around a little. It was the northern controled government that declared that slaves were property and therefore the population of black slaves could not be used in calulations for representation. Another point that is also very seldomed mentioned, especially by the NAACP, is that the majority of the slaves were well treated and even after their release from slavehood many stayed where they were. Even some of those that were taken away by the so called 'Underground Railroad' returned after the war to continue to work for their former slave masters.

Joel

[This message has been edited by Joel (edited 02 July 2000).]

[paulcs]

I wrote a long, empassioned response to this from a Northern perspective, and then erased the whole damn thing. I will say this. I think symbols take on a life of their own, and they can mean very different things to different people. For many of us, however, the stars and bars of the Confederacy represent events that divided us, literally, and serves as a symbol that continues to divide us.

I suspect we should not be airing our dirty laundry in an international forum--particularly during this time of year.

The Redcoats are here! (Just kidding )

Paul
paulcs@flashcom.net

[cjolley]

Most (I don't know about your state in particular) Confederate flags where put up over state capitals in the fifties and very eary sixties as protests against school desegrigation.
Talking about them in terms of heratage is a fig leaf.
Those particular flags ARE blatent symbols of official racism, and should be taken down and burned.
chuck

[Joel]

They are seen that way through uneducated eyes.

And to use the term African-American IMO is also a sign of separtation. And also IMO the NAACP is a racist organization.

'Jesse Jackson is my name, agitation is my game.'

Joel

[cjolley]

Even if that's true (Though the uneducated part is kinda funny), Two wrongs don't make a right.
chuck

PS I thought people were taught that at about age four.

[paulcs]

I see it the other way around. I think the use of African-American is engaging, an expression of inclusiveness, and I think this was done by design. In a country that considers itself a "nation of immigrants," where the "adjective-American" form is commonly used, it just seems appropriate. I've never heard anyone criticized for referring to themselves as an Italian-American or an Irish-American. The noun takes precedence, of course, but people of European ancestry are routinely permitted some identification with the mother country. Why not people of African ancestry?

This all sounds more engaging and inclusive to me than "black and white."

Paul
paulcs@flashcom.net

[This message has been edited by paulcs (edited 05 July 2000).]

[Rags]

What's so wrong with just "American"?

*Shrug* I guess that would be too simple, and wouldn't make a distinction in color, which I guess must be wrong.

I am an AMERICAN. I am NOT American-Indian.

Rags



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Partnership for an idiot free America

[merchant2112]

Paul’s "I've never heard anyone criticized for referring to themselves as an Italian-American or an Irish-American"

That’s because we have never heard of any one using I’m a irish-american I should not go to jail for drinking while intoxicated and running someone over or hitting someone else and killing them. Because Irish people are all lushes etc. the point is people don’t use I’m an Irish American or I’m an Italian American as a criminal defense due to racial bigotry and delusions of persecution. White guy kills a black guy that’s racist. A black guy kills a white guy that’s ok he’s just frustrated because 100 years ago his great great grandfather (who he never even knew or heard stories about.) was a slave. black guy kills a black guy, ah we don’t want to talk about that, (no real defense but they try it anyway.)

Hey anyone know what the term "honkey" means???? It is used as a racial remark theses days but the real meaning was "a poor white southern farmer."

[Jorden]

they will call each other by the 'N' word and it is no big deal but you let a white person, or anyone else for that matters, use it and that person is automatically labeled a racist.

Or worse, Joel. I tried it with Holly once and we had a complete out of hand fight.

But aren't all those Irish-American, Italian-American, Dutch-American, or general European-American (??), from the hay-days of the Mafia vs the FBI?

"nation of immigrants," where the "adjective-American" form is commonly used
What about the Indian-Americans then? Or are they American-Indians? Or are they native-Americans these days (even in days when it's been established that Africans have discovered the America's long before the Vikings did, and thus long before old Chris ever thought of sailing that fabled path, but that's material for a complete different thread )?

What's a real American?

Jord.

[This message has been edited by Jorden (edited 05 July 2000).]