Today is a sad day...

[Joel]

"What the true history of the Confederate flag is: I have no idea."

That is the real problem no one wants to take the time to learn the truth. They are willing to except the biased racist opinion of a small group that wants to do away with it.

Joel

[Joel]

"The meaning is in the eye of the beholder and for most people the meaning of the battle flag is racist."

That will all depend on where you live and who you talk to.

Joel

[Jammrock]

My thoughts (yes, I do think every once in a while:

The Civil War, aka The War between the States, ended over 135 years ago. The Confederate flag may be a 'symbol of racism' to some people, but to most Southerners I know it is their symbol of freedom. Personally, it's flag. I piece of cloth with color on it that was once used as banner for the southern US states.

And I hate to break it to everyone, but no matter what you do, no matter what you say, no matter how politically correct (pc, for non-US'ers) you are, you are going to offend someone somewhere. Being pc is the biggest bunch of crap ever invented. Being pc means you are a conformist to a standard setup by people who would argue the sun is green if it meant people would vote for them.

The confederate flag is part of some peoples heritage, just as much as being an American. Next thing you know people are going to get upset if I fly the Norwegian flag outside my house because its un-patriotic. Well people, I'm half Norwegian and the other half is an American of Anglo-Germanic heritage. The only people who can even call themselves true Americans live mostly on reservations, because European imigrants and the US government took all their land from them.

Why don't people get pissed at people flying the US flag? They have caused more suffering to the Native American nations than the Africans ever suffered at the hands of plantation owners. Entire tribes of Native Americans were wiped out by the US Army, then what was left of the survivors were put on reservations in the crappiest lands of the US. At least people of African decent have a home to go back to, if they really wanted to.

It's all crap I say. Have you ever wondered why people ever populated the fridged north of Scandinavia? According to historical documents they moved north because they were slaves to the Syrians. It happens people, live and move on.

Love and peace to everyone!

Jammrock

[Dilitante1]

It is a shame that this is dragging out in a long and sometimes ugly topic.It is a shame that when I said:

NUFF SAID

it wasn't the end, knowing all too well that the topic would get out of hand......

-Dil

------------------
I'm not just a MURCer, I'm also a client!

[Ees]

I'm Dutch, I don't know much about American history, and I don't really have an informed opinion about this Confederate flag business.

I'm kind of surprised though about the opinion that symbols (flags) should only be seen in their original context, not judged by subsequent abuse by others.

What about the swastika? Would it be okay if I start waving a swastika-flag, claiming it represents life, sun, power, strength, and good luck (it's original meanings in many cultures)? And people really shouldn't take offense?

Martin

[Joel]

"I've never been to South Carolina and I'm hoping that the reason this flag was brought down was due to on going racist issues that have been there for many years."

No it was brought down due to pressures from the NAACP. Through tourisum boycotts and, pardon the pun, blackmail. Most of the people of SC, including some blacks, were againist it's removal.

"The problem of the flag changed in the fifties. It was not used by a few individuals, it was used by state governments to protest forced integration."

That is the way you see it and I should not be held responsible for that. You have IMO the same bias slant on the Confederate Flag as the NAACP. The flags were put up in the late, late fifties early sixties to comemerate the 100th anniversary of most of those states entrance into the Confederacy. Sounds like to me that someone needs to bone up on their US history. Of course that maybe due to the fact that they don't teach about the Civil War in schools now days like they did when I was growing up.

But if you want a good history lesson here you go. Who captured and sold their own race into slavery? The Africans themselves sold their capture tribal war prisoners. What would have happened to those prisoners if the whites had not bought them? They would have been killed just like they still are doing today. So for those who are complaining because their ancestor may have been a slave think of this, if it haven't been for slavery then you yourself may not even be here because that great, great, great, great, great granddaddy of yours would have been killed, like most tribal war prisoners were at that time.

Joel

[Jorden]

Even in het Nederlands, Martin: Als je de Confederatie vlag ziet, met het kruis aan de voorkant, zie je een swastika zonder de uiteinden. Dus je ziet niet welke kant die uiteinden opstaan, of het de goede of kwade vlag is. <The federate flag doesn't show the ends of the cross, so it might be a swastika for good or for bad. Who's to know?>

Sorry I had to go in Dutch there. But I thought it best for the majority in this thread, and Joel might know what I said
(If not, read the hidden message )

Jord.

[Joel]

I don't think it has gotten out of hand considering the topic. Alot of good points have been brought up and discussed in a fairly adult manner.

The whole point of all this, for me in a way is that I don't feel that a small group that finds something offensive should be allowed to infringe upon mine or anyone else's first admendment right to freedom of expression.

Joel

[HollyBerri]

The whole point of all this...{snip} is that {snip} a small group that finds something offensive should be allowed to infringe upon mine or anyone else's first admendment right to freedom of expression.

And that, if you consider it, pretty much says all that need be said, or heard...does it not?

--------------------------
Holly

[Jord]

I don't think it has gotten out of hand considering the topic.

(emphasis mine)

Considering the topic being "Today is a sad day...", I don't see how all of this thread would've been different if the topic was called:[list=1][*] My windows aren't washed[*] It's raining, dammit[*] Who will do the dishes?[*] I'm Deprived and I'm back ( )[*] Where did I leave my car-keys?[*] What's my best Chris Rea CD?[*] I'm in Aspen, and it didn't SNOW !![*] Why didn't I post this in General Hardware?[*] So what does f*ck mean?[*] Dating tips for the lonely Techno-geeks[*] Why does my cat lose all her fur?[*] Anything about cheese, please !![*] Jim's obsession with Toast[*] Where's Ami, when we need her?[*] Who ate my darn NS cookies?[*] I'm Dutch, can you help me?[*] So what IS the meaning of life?[*] I got this song in my head, but don't know who sang it... HELP!![*] We're going to have our 12th baby... now I need some help with names... (grin)[*] Whatever.... Fine !![*] And what about Microsoft??[/list=a]

See?

Jord.

[Brian R.]

Joel - No one is trying to stop you personally from flying a flag outside your home on your property. That would be a first amendment issue. The state government cannot hide under first amendment privledges any more than a soldier or any government employee can.

I don't pretend to know the intent of the SC government in flying the flag as it had, but where I grew up (in a rather anti-black area) that flag was only displayed by people who were proud to be racist and used the flag as a license plate or on their house or whatever to flaunt their racist beliefs. I knew them and their intent. Most prominent of these people were the Chicago Nazi Party (or whatever they called themselves) and the Knights of the KKK (among others). This type of exposure makes the flag a very powerful symbol and raises very strong feelings against it, no matter what its history. I know its history and understand what SC may have been saying with it. However, SC made a mistake (IMHO) in using this flag as their rememberence of the CSA. This flag has been tainted by groups not caring a hoot about history, politics, or honor. They used it as a symbol of racism.
Too bad. The flag didn't deserve this treatment nor this reputation. It was an honorable flag. I'm afraid it is not anymore, by association.

[Joel]

"No one is trying to stop you personally from flying a flag outside your home on your property."

That is not entirely true. There are some people that have such a hatered toward the Confederate flag that they will kill someone over it and then try to use the defense that the flying of the flag was offensive and that they were only trying to defend themselves. And that did actually happen in Kentucky.

I also remember as a kid a time when there was a number of cross burnnings in the area where I lived. The KKK was blamed for it but after an FBI investigation it was found that the NAACP was behind them trying to gain membership through displaced intimidation.

Joel

[This message has been edited by Joel (edited 07 July 2000).]

[Brian R.]

No statement is perfectly correct. All I meant was that this issue was not directed at you personally. It is a government issue. I don't see any more into it than that.

As far as stopping you from flying the flag if you wish, no one is immune from lawlessness. Law breakers affect everyone at one time or another. It is true that numerous neighborhoods have very restrictive ordanances concerning the outward appearance of your house.

The use of hatred and fear is universal. No one is immune from that either, at some point.


[This message has been edited by Brian R. (edited 07 July 2000).]

[Joel]

That is where it starts and then before you know it there goes your personal rights. I personally don't feel that even the government should pander to the NAACP. IMO they are doing more to destory racial harmony that the KKK could have ever done. Especially in this era of so called political correctness where people are afraid to voice how they feel about something out of fear of retribution.

Joel

[Kruzin]

Here's what the flag makes me think of