More Bull****

[Joel]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">I know that the mentally unstable and the little old ladies grab the attention of the media</font>

That's because the media is controled by the bleeding heart liberals. They don't want you to see the real truth. BTW I think anyone who can take take someone else's life away is mentally unstable. I mean we will put a dog down for mauling a child but we are willing to let a cold blooded have a second chance, most of the time to do it again.

Joel

[Pneumatic]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
I have a problem with the death penalty for three main reasons, first and foremost because of my religious beliefs</font>

I personally belive that capitol punishment is in accordance with the Bible. Show me where it says in the Bible that murderers should live out the rest of their lives in air conditioned rooms watching TV and playing Monopoly.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"> second because it's the worst and ultimate form of totalitarian government</font>

Huh? Government isn't going to put me to death. You know why? Because I'm not going to kill anyone. If you do, then your rights are given up. What rights does a person have that disembowels and cuts the limbs off of a 14 year old girl? "Totalitarian"....Please.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">and third because every study ever done on the subject has shown capitol punishment does NOT deter crime in any way shape or form. You'd think with the hundreds and hundreds of executions in Texas that the state's murder rate would begin to drop. Well it hasn't.</font>

Well, that one isn't an opinion. That one is a fact that if you would have checked you wouldn't have added. In fact the murder rate in Texas has dropped. Murder Rates per 100,000 population dropped from 9 to 6.1 and is the lowest it has been since 1974. It fell 25% under Governor Bush, as did other crimes. Coincidence? Hmmmmm. I doubt it. So I would say that capitol punishment IS a deterrent, wouldn't you?

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">85% of murders in this country are acts of rage committed between people who know each other (family disputes, lover's quarrels etc) and are not random acts of violence. Capitol punishment laws do nothing to deter or reduce these crimes.</font>

The laws in Texas are that if you kill someone you won't always get the death penalty. You have to murder in conjunction with another offense. For example: If I got up from here, grabbed my gun and walked out to the street and killed the first person I saw I would not be eligible for the death penalty. If I was in the process of robbing a store and killed the clerk, I would get juiced up. Any other felony committed in conjunction with murder makes you eligible for the death penalty. That keeps the people that kill someone in the heat of the moment from getting executed for it. (I'm all for that by the way) Nothing will deter this kind of murder, so it's a mute point. It will deter the ones that plan a murder or plan to be in a position where thy could kill someone (like robbing a store).

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Obviously the state has the right and obligation to protect its people from criminals but in my view it does not (or should not) have the power over life and death. Those who commit murder should be forced to sit in a jail cell for the rest of their lives and deal with the consequences of their actions. Putting them to death is a free pass that allows them to avoid this responsibility.</font>

This is the part that steams me the most. Jail isn't a punishment for most of these people. Actually it is probably a lot nicer than where they were living before they committed the crime. It cost and obscene amount of money to house a prisoner. I heard a figure of $40,000 per year to house one inmate for one year. Let's say that a 20 year old guy goes out and kills a family of 4 while they are having a picnic in the park. He gets caught and sentenced to life in prison. That means that if he lives to be 75 we get to pay $2,200,000 to let him do so. But, here's the best part! Guess what? He probably won't be in there for the rest of his life. He will hit parole in about 30 years and be at the restaurant of his choice on his 50th birthday. Then the odds are in favor of him killing again. Bad move keeping this guy alive. How many stories have you heard of murderers getting out of jail and killing again?

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Ghandi once said, "An eye for an eye only makes the whole world blind." You can't wash off blood with more blood.</font>

Ghandi was a very wise man so I will definitely not be poking out anyones eyes from here on out. I will, however, advocate people paying for taking a life by surrendering theirs. The only "more blood" that will be shed if we don't get rid of these people is the blood of their next victim. You can explain to their families why their killer was walking the streets.

(edit) I don't think any less of people that are against the death penalty. I know that it is merely a difference of oppinion so don't take any of this as a personal attack. I have heard all of the arguments and have yet to hear one that has even comes close to making me rethink my opinion (much like you probably will not rethink yours)




[This message has been edited by Kindness! (edited 27 April 2001).]

[FrankDC]

Well, I never said anything about "the bible". I said capitol punishment is against my religious beliefs. The bible also says men who make love to menstruating women are to be put to death, and that it's ok to sell your sister into slavery, but I don't believe those things either. I'll say this though, according to the bible, when Cain killed Abel God did not kill Cain.

Also, regarding the murder rate in Texas I should have qualified my statement. Do a little more research and you'll discover that Texas has seen the *exact same* 30-50% drop in murder rates that the other states have over the past ten or so years. The vast majority of these other states have no capitol punishment laws. The declines have been due to economic and other factors and are not because of the death penalty. There has never been one study that links capitol punishment to a decline in crime rates. Not one.

As for your last point, I'm in favor of life imprisonment without parole, but I'm not in favor of killing people and I never will be. But this is one of those topics where we could discuss it for 100 years and it still wouldn't change our views so I think we should quit while we're ahead.

[Joel]

I'll tell you what. I propose that those that are against the death penalty sign a registry, so that they can be the ones called upon to foot the bill for the scum that is in prison that IMO deserve to die.

I also, one time, on a different forum proposed a similar idea for the pro-lifers. That they sign a registry for adoption purposes so that a woman considering an abortion would have a list of people ready and willing to take the child when it is born, if she is forced to carry it to term. Boy did I receive a lot of flack over that one and mostly from the so called pro lifers.

Joel

[FrankDC]

Joel, for the record, the claim that it's less expensive to execute people rather than incarcerate them is a complete myth:
http://www.house.gov/judiciary_democ...athpenalty.htm

Rags, sorry for the delete/re-entry. See note #2 at the above link and find the article if you're interested. It's not just the cost of incarceration.

[Rags]

I think Joel's point is that if you keep someone on Death Row for six years, it's cheaper than keeping them in prison for life over the period of 30+ years.
Rags


PS And I know about the cost of incarceration vs legal expenses.

[Rags]

Okay, I just read your link, with an outrageous claim.

There have been numerous other studies done that show it does cost more per year to house someone on death row, but if they are executed in a timely manner (within 6-8 years), which that is the norm, then it's much cheaper in the long run.

Rags

[Rags]

http://www.dc.state.fl.us/oth/deathrow/

http://www.tdcj.state.tx.us/stat/drowfacts.htm


http://www.idoc.state.il.us/news/death_row_stats.pdf
http://www.doc.state.co.us/DeathRow/DeathRow.htm

Here's just a sampler of what the yearly cost of incarceration is. Be aware that if you add Judiciary costs, that the average for normal inmates is markedly lower per year, but not 1.x million, and the total cost is much lower if you were to compare it to how much it would cost to hold said prisoner in for life.

Rags

[FrankDC]

Thanks for the links. Maybe I missed it but none of them claim execution is cheaper than incarceration, and it wouldn't change my view even if it was. I believe it's cruel and unusual punishment and it brings the rest of society down to the same level as the criminals.

Like I said this debate goes on forever, I'll bow out of this one now.

[Rags]

Frank, I am not debating whether or not it's a good thing to kill someone. I am pointing out that your link is, how do I say it nicely...Well, it's not only false, but it's part of a biased opinion. I tend to disregard those.

I minored in Criminal Law in college and I have done extensive research on the statistics for our criminal justice system, and I routinely keep an eye on what's happening with it. Your link is false, and if you wish I can provide you with the stats for each state. The cost of incarceration takes into account the total cost for keeping a prisoner in prison, and that means Medical, Dental, Optical, security, housing. The only thing that isn't accounted for is legal expenses. Those figures are available on the internet for most states as well, and most definitely at the library. Even factoring in the legal expenses, it's cheaper (on average) to keep a prisoner in at the higher rate for up to 15 years as opposed to 30+ years. Of course if they are executed before 15, then the cost drops enormously.

So if you want to debate the costs and stats, let me know, I can surely do that

Rags

[Strahd]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Kindness!:
Strahd: Is Bongo your brother
[This message has been edited by Kindness! (edited 26 April 2001).]</font>

Why would you say that Kindness? I wasn't bashing. I was kidding. You know, the way everythings bigger in Texas? Texas believes in the death penalty, abortions etc etc. If this was to occur in any state, it would have to be Texas.
If there was a state I had to pick to live in it would probably be Texas simply because they seem to have balls, character.
I'm pro death penalty myself. But I can't understand how a state that is so reknowned for having the death penalty, can have so many murders running around.

Your last post was actually people that were put to death this month?

Wouldn't you think that the media coverage would scaree people out of committing these acts?

I know, you'll say that murders are nut jobs, crazy. But how could somebody be so irrational that they don't realize, if you commit a murder in Texas, you will pay.



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[FrankDC]

Kindness, I have a problem with the death penalty for three main reasons, first and foremost because of my religious beliefs, second because it's the worst and ultimate form of totalitarian government, and third because every study ever done on the subject has shown captiol punishment does NOT deter crime in any way shape or form. You'd think with the hundreds and hundreds of executions in Texas that the state's murder rate would begin to drop. Well it hasn't.

85% of murders in this country are acts of rage committed between people who know each other (family disputes, lover's quarrels etc) and are not random acts of violence. Capitol punishment laws do nothing to deter or reduce these crimes.

Obviously the state has the right and obligation to protect its people from criminals but in my view it does not (or should not) have the power over life and death. Those who commit murder should be forced to sit in a jailcell for the rest of their lives and deal with the consequences of their actions. Putting them to death is a free pass that allows them to avoid this responsibility.

Ghandi once said, "An eye for an eye only makes the whole world blind." You can't wash off blood with more blood.

[Joel]

I know a way to save the taxpayers over 20 billion dollars a year and eliminate prison over-crowding. At least for a while that is.

Release the half-a-million or so people who are in prison for minor drug and tax offenses that are there costing the taxpayers about $40,000 each per year.

And it would also have the added benefit of seeing to it that these truly violent criminals don't get released so they can make room for someone who got caught smoking a joint.

I mean looked at the countries that have legalized drugs. Do they have the gang wars, drive by shootings, turf wars, and the shooting down and killing of innocence people in the name of a war on drugs?

Joel

[This message has been edited by Joel (edited 28 April 2001).]

[windigo]

Ives Lavigne books on the hells angels organization are a good read on the new brand of criminal's, and how the police forces turn a blind eye to it just so they can pump up their budgets and erode our rights. I saw an interview with him on TVO and he has to live in hiding everyday even has to hide his office where he hasnt been in over a year because the police want to know who his informants are!!

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[HedsSpaz]

Hmm, it's been a while since I've been around (been playing too much EverQuest), but I do still check the boards regularly, and I feel a strong need to comment on the subject of this thread.

I support the death penalty. I do so for a number of reasons, but specifically I want to speak to the subject of religion and how I relate it to capital punishment.

Lets take a hypothetical situation. An innocent person is wrongfully convicted and sentanced to death, and executed before evidence arises that said person was in fact innocent.

This person is now dead, nothing can be done about that. However, what happens in the afterlife now that they are dead. (note, if you are an atheist then none of this is going to hold any merit for you, and to be quite honest, I don't give a rats a$$).

So, this dead person is going to have one of two things happen to them ultimately, they are either going to go to hell, or they are going to go to heaven. Lets assume they go to hell. Well, they obviously did something wrong in this life, even if they were innocent of the crime they were put to death for. Are they going to be mad that they were killed? You bet. Do I care? Not a bit. They are in HELL. They are there for a reason. Chances are, whether they had been put to death or not, thats where they would have ended up anyway.

Ok, other possibility, this innocent person goes to Heaven. Keep in mind now, Heaven is a place of Love, Joy, Happieness, and Forgiveness. This person isn't going to be mad at anyone for having wrongfully executed him, so long as we strive to keep it from happening very often. This person is going to think to themselves, 'Well, they were trying to do what was right, and thats all you can do really, keep trying to do what is right'.

So, lets now discuss the other important party involved, God. God is the ultimate essence of Love and Forgiveness. Do you honestly believe that He of all beings is going to be mad because we were trying to do what is right? If you do I think you are in the wrong religion.

I have no qualms about convicting and executing someone who maliciously murdered another human being. Capital Punishment CAN be an effective deterant if instituted properly. 2 years max stay on death row. Start putting more of them out of circulation to begin with, murder should be met with execution. (do note that there is a LARGE difference between 'murder' and 'manslaughter', heat of the moment is manslaughter, not murder).

Ok, I think thats enough philosophizing (or whater it is that I've been doing) for the moment.

Ian