OT: Bush's speach

[KvHagedorn]

In London a poster appeared outside Finsbury Park Mosque the day after the attack. It showed the remains of the World Trade Center and photos of George W. Bush and Tony Blair. The text read: Death to Bush. Death to Blair.

Is Britain's government so powerless and/or weak-minded to just let such things go? I view with dire suspicion any Islamic person living in the West. They are here to infiltrate and invade.. to take advantage of our liberal societies, use them against us as the weakness they are, and destroy us from within. People like dancray are their sworn allies in this, sowing doubt upon the necessity of fighting back.

Afghanistan is a trap. It is really useless to go there unless we mean to sterilize the whole area with nuclear weapons. The "poor starving villiagers" are complicit with our enemy and will say anything we want to hear to save their own skins. The Taliban will use them as shields without remorse and then blame the US for murdering civilians. I heard the Northern Alliance leader on TV spewing a bunch of obvious lies about how they hate terrorists and bin Laden, just so we will ally with them in their fight against the Taliban. Well guess what folks? If we help them win, they will be tomorrow's despots and then the middle east and its vociferous traitor allies in Europe will be berating the US for its evil foreign policy again. Screw going there. Bin Laden is just laughing at us sending troops into that deathtrap of a fleabitten country. More dead Americans for him to cheer about.

If we really want to do something about terrorism in the West, we need to do what the pansies here and in Europe believe is unthinkable. We need to Intern every Muslim in camps, just like we did to the Japanese-Americans during WW2. There is infinitely more cause in this case than there ever was with the Japanese; after all, this enemy defines itself by espionage and sabotage, the very fears which caused the WW2 internment. Britain apparently is in dire need of swift action here, since the threat from within there is so utterly brazen and obvious. I hope they don't need to see St Paul's or Westminster in ruins before they understand how real the threat is in the UK. Muslims in the West should either leave or face internment for the necessity of our own protection and theirs. Of course we won't do this very necessary thing to ensure our own survival. We think we can have a free society for anyone here. Well friends, that's a bunch of childish fantasy. Time to grow up and face the real world. The enemy has used this politically correct crap to weaken us and sow doubt among us against decisive action. It is this very unwillingness to fight the internal threat that will make us lose. Mark my words, if we don't act to deport and intern these people, our inaction will cause us great suffering here, and it will all be the fault of the vociferous, indignant, brain-dead people like dancray who continue to advocate this politically correct bullshit.

Bin Laden is laughing at us going to Afghanistan when the real threat is still within our own homelands.

[The PIT]

Is Britain too weak. Yes but this could be changing now that the do gooders (Not all I'm afraid but they haven't got a grip on life yet) have gone strangly quiet.
Intern every Muslim. I don't think so becuase not every Muslim agrees with what has happened and what the extremists say or want. However any person who actively seeks to undermine society by either supporting terrorism, stirring racial hatred, intimidation and violence or have in the past been guilty of mass murder of civilans for their believes should either be detained at her majestys displeasure or deported back to the country of orgin. If the country doesn't want them back just dump in the sea.
In the west we also believe in the freedom of speech the question is where do you draw the line and you've got to be careful you don't slip into a police state.
Last year I saw a poster complaining about the Governments so called clamp down on extremists groups. It read racisim against Islam. This the main reason why nothing has been done about the groups and the reason why the terrorists when they were over here were not watched. The main thing about the poster that puzzled me is, how is it racist to stop these groups from going round planning to kill innocent people?

[KvHagedorn]

you've got to be careful you don't slip into a police state.

Better even to have a temporary police state run by our own people to get rid of the foreigners than a permanent police state set up by the foreigners to get rid of our people in their own lands. Imagine every great cathedral in Europe and America blown to bits like the Taliban did to the ancient Buddhas in Afghanistan.. That's what they will do when they get control.. and, oh yes.. we ourselves (if we are allowed to live) as second class citizens in our own ex-homelands will be allowed to be slaves and pay crippling taxes to them? I don't think so. I don't really care who is an innocent and who is not at this point. They would lie about it anyhow. Better to rid ourselves of all of them. They say we desecrate their holy homeland by being in Saudi Arabia.. I say they desecrate our holy homelands by being in Europe.

[Schorsch]

Originally posted by KvHagedorn



We think we can have a free society for anyone here. Well friends, that's a bunch of childish fantasy. Time to grow up and face the real world. The enemy has used this politically correct crap to weaken us and sow doubt among us against decisive action. It is this very unwillingness to fight the internal threat that will make us lose. Mark my words, if we don't act to deport and intern these people, our inaction will cause us great suffering here, and it will all be the fault of the vociferous, indignant, brain-dead people like dancray who continue to advocate this politically correct bullshit.

Sorry, but I can't leave this without a comment. You want to "deport and intern" all muslims just because of their religion. Think about it again, that's exactly what the Nazis did with the Jews 60 years ago and you know where it all ended. If religion or color of the skin are reason enough to deport a person, the next person to be deported may very well be YOU.
You say we can't have a free society for anyone - but if a society isn't free for anyone who sticks to the laws it isn't a free society at all. Or as a famous German politician once said: "Freedom is always freedom for the man who thinks differently. "

Just my 2 Pfennigs,

Georg

[KvHagedorn]

Sorry, but I can't leave this without a comment. You want to "deport and intern" all muslims just because of their religion. Think about it again, that's exactly what the Nazis did with the Jews 60 years ago and you know where it all ended.

The Nazis exterminated Jews and starved them in work camps. I didn't advocate any of that. In the US during WW2, we interned many Japanese-Americans in camps which were totally humane (other than restricting access and preventing them from living at home) because it was felt necessary due to risk of espionage and sabotage. Yes, we didn't intern German-Americans or Italian-Americans, but not only could we understand their loyalty due to their European culture, but if we had interned them, that would have been half the country in camps right there. I really don't think the Japanese-Americans deserved internment at all, but we did it to them anyhow. The Muslims are a different matter, though. They have as much as admitted that they take advantage of our free society as part of their battle plan, as terrorist methods are 100% espionage and sabotage, and they masquerade as ordinary citizens or legitimate visa holders. We are further seeing how the whole of Islam seems to be mobilizing against us, which I believe is cause to really think about these solutions, since there is no telling where the first loyalty of any Muslim lies.. is it with Allah and Jihad or is it to the western nation into which he has recently moved for one selfish reason or another? You tell me. If it comes to a choice between doing this or suffering more atrocities like the World Trade Center, I choose internment and deportation. Furthermore, we just cannot allow internal sedition and treason to hide behind a supposedly legitimate religion. And if Islam says you and I must submit to Muslims or die, the hell with it.. it is NOT a legitimate religion. It is the sworn enemy of western culture and must be stamped out within our borders before it can stamp us out!

If religion or color of the skin are reason enough to deport a person, the next person to be deported may very well be YOU.

So every white Christian should be deported from his homeland in Europe and America? That sounds like the Islamic agenda. I know this is possible if they win, which is the very reason I am proposing what I am proposing. White Christians have been driven out of lands they were trying to colonize before, such as India and the African states. No doubt you supported those nations regaining their sovereignty from foreign "opression". I am trying to prevent a much less benign colonization and a much more real opression from happening to us right here in the West. If you feel for those aliens, some of which are now our enemy, why can you not feel for us ourselves in our hour of need?!?

"Freedom is always freedom for the man who thinks differently."

Does this freedom extend to a madman like bin Laden and his followers, who want to exterminate you, your family, and all your people? Is such a utopia really so desirable to you?


If you are going to argue with me on this issue, please use some practical sense. These tired old liberal arguments based upon emotion and non-logic are getting really tiresome, and we cannot afford the luxury we once had to make them. We are not standing on solid ground anymore. The third world is not the victim anymore.. we are. Now let's see if you can show some sympathy for your own poor besieged culture for a change. It's about time we all did that.

[Joel]

You talk about the racism that is toward Muslims in the West but you say nothing about the racism toward Christians in the Middle East. They say the problem is that we should get out of the Israel/Palastine conflict. That is what they want us to do so that they can finally destory the Jews once and for all. Not sure where I read it, but there was a Muslim Cleric who basically said that they wished Hitler had finished the job he started.

Joel

[Joel]

I have another question. If the Muslims are so condemning of these terrorist attacks and want to talk about how it goes againist the true nature of Islam and that is of peace, then why aren't they doing everything they can to help bring this man to justice? Do they not believe in justice for murder?? And I don't care what religion you are this can not be viewed as anything else but murder!!! Whether it was in the name of Allah or not.

Joel

[Gurm]

Joel didn't kill my earlier post, so I did. But I do have a couple of thoughts.

1. No matter HOW NICE the Muslims seem, you just can't tell - will they choose Jihad or the USA? I can (sort of) answer that question.

Jihad:

Holy war. Yes, we all know that. But who decides that it is holy? At the moment, the high muslim clerics are in disagreement. The ones in Afghanistan think that we should all die, and have called for Jihad. The ones in other Arab nations (well except Iran and Iraq - BIG SURPRISE) have made no such call.

But what if they do?

What if, in the course of dealing with the Taliban, we manage to piss off the Saudis? What happens if the Saudi clerics (who have affiliation with Mecca, the holiest of holy muslim sites) decide that Jihad _is_ warranted?

If THAT happens, then every single 7-11 employee in the entire civilized world will procure weapons and start mowing down Americans and whoever gets in the way. THAT is what will happen.

If you think that "not all Muslims"... blah blah blah ... then you are sorely mistaken. Yes, there are moderate Muslims. But _all_ of them will gladly slaughter us in the street if directed. This is ONE reason Islam needs to just be eliminated.

Oops, did I say that? Yes I did. It sounds radical, doesn't it? But seriously, by their own admission they are the bastard castoffs of Abraham - the son sent away because he was impure. And every time I hear a Muslim talk about "peace" in the Middle East, I am reminded of the time I heard another Muslim talk about "driving all the Jews into the sea".

Asinine, isn't it? It's a fake religion. It's a perverted form of Judaism. It's made-up. Not as recently and obviously made up as Mormonism (don't get me started - their holy prophet's name is Moron!) or Jehovah's witnesses or any of that garbage... but still made-up.

The fact that every raghead camel-jockey in the middle east follows it doesn't mean it's REAL.

Funny thoughts to close with. I have friends who lived in the compound in Tehran - OPEC oil concerns... anyway, they weren't allowed to bring in tapes or albums of their favorite rock bands - banned by the government. But CD's were ok. Why?

Because EVERY SINGLE SAUDI does not believe that light can be changed into sound. Seriously. The government told them it was impossible, and an affront to Allah's will. So, when they see CD's, they say "thank you for coming to Tehran, you may keep this shiny trinket".

And THEY BELIEVE IT. What a bunch of moronic twerps. I say, dump 'em ALL in the oil and let 'em stew in it.

- Gurm

[The PIT]

Quoting Joel

I have another question. If the Muslims are so condemning of these terrorist attacks and want to talk about how it goes againist the true nature of Islam and that is of peace, then why aren't they doing everything they can to help bring this man to justice?

A very valid point. By doing nothing they are aiding the terrorists.

[Jammrock]

don't get me started - their holy prophet's name is Moron!

F**K YOU, GURM! I just lost all respect I ever had for you! You obviously have ZERO concept of my relegious beliefs. Why don't you try learning about someone's relegion before you start openly bashing it.

First off, Mormon is NOT "our holy prophet". You're merely spouting out anti-Mormon literature like it was the gospel truth. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, more commonly referred to as "the Mormons", is a Christian relegion. We read the same Holy Bible as all the other Christian relegions, believe in the same Jesus Christ as all the other Christian relelgions, believe in all the same holy prophets of the biblical times, just like all the other Christian relegions do. We just don't believe that God gave the Earth the big middle finger and told everyone to f**k off, like most other relegions believe.

If this is the extent of your relegious knowledge, then you have no right posting a f**king thing about Islam or anything relegious!

Jammrock

[GT98]

This might be my own slightly twisited way of thinking, but dont you think that if the US left Isreali alone to face the Arabs themselfs that the Middle East would be left a smoking nuclear wasteland? I know of I was Israli and my home land was about to be taken over by Arabs the first target I would hit would be Mecca then all the captals of whatever countries where invading..Its kinda scary where this whole thing could lead up to, just because someone perverted a relgion to serve their own needs. I personally dont like Reglion myself (believe in a god though), but this shows how things can get perverted by people.

The link that Joel or someone posted on other thread before with Christains living in the Middle East that where of Arab backround, and they brought up a couple interesting points about Islam and Christainy...I read it and was taken back by some of the comments, but basicly it stated that Their Messah first started off by saying hey lets all live peacefully together...this was when Islam was weak then later changed to lets kill all the non-believers after they gained strength. I took much of this with a grain of salt, but it is chilling none the less...

Scott

[Joel]

Here's another reason why they are willing to fight and die in the name of Allah.

The final category which I will deal with is that of paradise, or heaven. In Islam, Paradise is a garden, with rivers (some of wine), fruits and large eyed virgins (Hourris); a very carnal and man-centered environment (Suras 55:56; 56:22,35-36), reflecting again a seventh-ninth century Arabic mentality.
Ironically, in Islam, men are promised the very things which they must abstain from in this life. Nowhere is there any mention of Allah in relationship with his creation in paradise. He is conspicuously absent. The Islamic aversion towards any contact between the creator and his created continues even till the end. Mankind is relegated to spending eternity filling up on fruit, wine and women.

Question. What's there for the Muslim women?

Joel

[Gurm]

Jammrock,

I've read the book of Mormon.

The guy's name is "Moroni", not "Mormon".

And I was oversimplifying to highlight that it's a made-up religion. If you take it seriously that's great, but don't pretend that it's more than 150 years old.

The entire thing is REALLY suspect, dude.

Man has a dream, sees an angel, digs up some tablets, has more dreams, angels show him some stones to decipher the tablets, then stones, angels, and tablets all disappear...

And then we have the Book of Mormon. Which is not bad in its concepts. Better than a lot. But whereas Christianity proper and Judaism, and EVEN Islam are historically accurate (look up a place in the Qu'ran and you can go FIND it archeologically), the Book of Mormon would have us believe that there were cities, MASSIVE cities, with hundreds of thousands of people in them, somewhere in the American midwest.

Not only are there no remains of such cities, but there are no stories from the native Americans about such cities, no documents surviving... ABSOLUTELY ZERO proof that they ever existed.

Do I think Mormons are bad people? Hell no, nice folks (yourself included). Do I think the religion is based on some REALLY suspect stuff? Yeah. Are other religions equally suspect? Maybe, but they're suspect from thousands years ago, not 150. I mean, Moses and Abraham may or may not have been visited by God, but they DID exist. We have records (historically accurate records). We have archaeology. Ur (Abraham's birthplace) existed... they found it and dug it up. Jericho existed.

None of the places listed in BOM existed - or if they did, they were spirited away by the same forces that took the tablets and stones and angels away from Mr. Smith.

I'm sorry if I came off as a bit rude. But don't presume that I don't understand a religion. I've got religion covered, my friend.

- Gurm

[Jammrock]

Gurm,

You may have read The Book of Mormon, but you apparently weren't paying attention.

The guy's name is "Moroni", not "Mormon".

Moroni was the son of Mormon. Mormon was the person that compiled and abridged the records of his people, which he called, The Book of Mormon, but his actual, original content is rather small. Moroni was his son and took over once his father died. Moroni added the end portion. Both were prophets, just like Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel, etc. Nothing more, nothing less.

don't pretend that it's more than 150 years old.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was officially established 6 April 1830 in New York. I don't seem to recall saying it was any older.

The entire thing is REALLY suspect, dude.

That depends on how much you understand. Since I have a deeper and more studied understanding on the subject, it's not suspect. Since you only think you do, you find it suspect.

Man has a dream...etc...and tablets all disappear...

1) Read the Bible, it happens all the time to prophets in the Bible\Koran\Torah, why not today? It's amazing how people will believe in some guy who has been dead for 5000 years, but not some one who lived in our era.
2) 'The tablets' are called the Golden Plates. Key word: Gold. If you lived back in the 1820, had been entrusted with ~90lbs of a gold alloy which contained holy write, entrusted to you by an angel and everyone hated you, would you go flaunting them around? As for historical accuracy...there are several instances in South America and the Middle East were people have found documents written on metallic sheets/plates/tablets. Even some of the famed Dead Sea Scrolls are written on copper.
3) This part could go on forever. If you want to discuss it in detail, ICQ me.

...MASSIVE cities...in the American midwest.

You are incorrect. The massive cities you mention were all in South America, and if you follow the descriptions of the land's layout it's pretty easy to pick off. And unless the history books I've seen are all lies, there are massive, ancient cities in South America that were populated by tens to hundreds of thousands of people. One show on South America on ye olde History channel stated there is an ancient farming area of South America capable of supporting millions of people by itself. There are places were they mention people moving/living in the "North" but size and/or quantity are never mentioned, since the bulk of the people and action were still in the South.

None of the places listed in BOM existed

Yes and no. There are large cities in the areas where the BOM says there were large cities. You merely don't think so, since you think the BOM took place in North America. As for documentation...uh, people can still read ancient Hebrew, Arimaic, Arabic, etc...no one can read the ancient languages of South America. There are writtings, there are documents found in the BOM areas, but no one can read them. The BOM was translated by a Biblical devices called the Urim and Thummin, which mysteriously vanished on Old Testament times...hmmmmm... There are Native American and South American legends that support several of the stories of the BOM, so don't even go there. I knew a guy who lived with Native American tribes for more than 20 years BEFORE he learned of the BOM, and the stories in the BOM sounded all natural and Native American to him.

got religion covered...

Apparently not as well as you think.

Jammrock

[The PIT]

Oh dear someones setup a peace group in Sheffield and will protest outside the city hall as soon as the first bomb is dropped.
Still if they can everyone to give up the terrorists all over the world without a shot being fired and keeps these camps closed permantly I'm all for it. Oh also if they can stop young children being brainwashed by religous fanatics I forgot to mention that.
Somehow though I doubt they haven't got that on their agenda.