OT: Bush's speach

[Gurm]

My apologies. The South America bit kinda blows me out of the water, now dunnit?

*** GURM LOOKS VERY RED-FACED ***

I'll look into it further. You have my apologies...

- Gurm

[The PIT]

I've just sent one of the leaders of this peace movement an email to see what there policies really are.
I wonder if he responds.

[KvHagedorn]

Oh yes.. we are all going to be sweet little pacifists and hope you don't do anything more bad to us and Usama is really good just misunderstood and if we just love him he will start being nice and everything will be all wonderful and flowers will grow everywhere.. isn't that nice?

Tell the little girls not to stay out past their bedtime.

If it isn't comprised of females under the age of 20, they are not just sweet and innocent idealists, though.. they are the enemy, more pervasive than any declaration of jihad could make any Muslim be. In this case, they are traitors and should be dealt with accordingly.

[The PIT]

Just wait and see if he says anything. Yes I did mention pacifism and a few other things. If he comes up with a load of rubbish I'll post it here with his email address so anyone can address each issue. If he doesn't reply theres not a lot I can do apart from emailing him again.

[Dr Mordrid]

If a species is too stupid to defend itself this is what you get;

College curriculum circa 300,000 AD:

Introductory human pacifism
Introductory human apathy
Extinction studies (human)
The rise of Avian civilization

Dr. Mordrid

[The PIT]

Hold on I didn't say I agree with them. I don't believe a minute that being a pacifist will work. Old dustbin liner will laugth his socks off. Theres no way that they could make any Government hand over terrorists.
I want to know if they plan on trying to make the Governments give these poeple up and to make sure the the terrorist camps are closed and help the brain washed kids see that there leaders were liars and tossers.
I reckon they intend to do nothing and will carry on doing nothing until someone drops a bomb on them and then it going to be to late.
My orginal post about it was being idealist and tongue in cheek.

[Wombat]

I tried really hard not to post to this thread lately. The bigots have run amok, and I was going to just let them have this as their sandbox.

Points:

-If you think the Japanese Americans that were interned were treated humanely, you are sorely mistaken. Even when the war was over, many could not reclaim their homes, property, jobs. The US gov't has even apologized for their gross mistreatment.

-And if we're going to kick the Muslims out of this country now, why didn't we kick out the Irish when the Molly McGuires were out in force? Screw the innocents, right? Even now, there's a big Catholic v. Protestant issue in Ireland (what, Christians misbehaving and causing acts of terrorism? Never!). We should remove all the Irish from the US; you never know who might be a sympathizer.

-"jihad" does NOT translate to "holy war." It means "religious struggle," much the way you can consider the plight of ethnic minorities in many countries to be an "ethnic struggle." And even when jihad does come down to fighting, there are specific rules about how the fighting can be conducted, and the WTC bombing does not follow those rules at all.

And as for KvH: the world would be a lot better without people of your opinion. But, you have your right to say what you want. Everybody does, in this country (thank God). But you, I, and everyone else would be better if you talked less, and thought more.

[The PIT]

If read carefully what I said about removing people/imprisoning from Britain it didn't mention one single race I said the following.

However any person who actively seeks to undermine society by either supporting terrorism, stirring racial hatred, intimidation and violence or have in the past been guilty of mass murder of civilans for their believes should either be detained at her majestys displeasure or deported back to the country of orgin. If the country doesn't want them back just dump them in the sea.

I'll think you find that covers the IRA, Royalist Terrorists, Serbian etc etc.

We shouldn't dump them in the sea thats not fair to the sharks and other fishes.

[Joel]

-"jihad" does NOT translate to "holy war." It means "religious struggle," much the way you can consider the plight of ethnic minorities in many countries to be an "ethnic struggle." And even when jihad does come down to fighting, there are specific rules about how the fighting can be conducted, and the WTC bombing does not follow those rules at all.

Yeah let's see what those rules are.

To Kill and to Die in the Name of Allah
By: Abdullah Al Araby

The following are news items quoted from newspapers in the last few years:

September 11, 2001

"In the worst terrorist attack ever against the United States, hijackers (believed to be connected to Osama Bin Laden's Islamic terrorist group) struck at preeminent symbols of the nations wealth and might, flying airlines into the World Trade Center and the Pentagon and Killing or injuring thousands of people."

October 19, 1994

" A powerful bomb, apparently placed by Islamic militants opposed to the Arab-Israeli peace negotiations, blew up a crowded bus during the morning rush hour in the heart of Tel Aviv, Israel, killing 22 people and wounding 48."

July 18, 1994

" A huge bomb placed by Muslim extremists exploded destroying a seven- story downtown building housing two Jewish groups in Buenos Aires, Argentina. At least 26 people were killed and 127 were injured."

February 26, 1993

" A tremendous underground explosion believed to be caused by a bomb placed by Muslim extrimists, shook the 110-story twin towers of Manhattan's World Trade Center,inNew York, killing at least five people, injuring more than 1000, and sending tens of thousands of workers fleeing for their lives down crowded smoke-filled stairs ."

May 4, 1992

"13 Egyptian Christians were shot dead by Muslim fundamentalists in Mansheit Nasser, Egypt. Ten Christian farmers were ambushed and murdered while working in their fields. A Christian teacher was shot in the local school while teaching a class of ten- year olds. A Christian doctor was shot dead outside his home."

These are just few samples out of thousands of terrorist attacks, which all have one element in common : they were all committed by Muslim extremists. While there are extremists in other groups, who are capable of committing acts of violence, it seems that violence committed by Muslim extremists exceeds the violence of other groups.

Why do Muslim extremists act this way?

Are Muslims inherently inhumane, savage and evil?- of course not. Muslims are ordinary people, just like anybody else. They are fathers, brothers and sons. They could be doctors, engineers and lawyers. They are your co-workers, and your next door neighbors. Violence is committed by a minority of Muslim extremists.

So, what goes on their minds when they act violently? To understand this one must understand an important and dangerous Islamic teaching called "Jihad" ( or Holy war).

It is important to understand that not every Arab is a Muslim , not every Muslim is an Arab, and not every Muslim is a extremist. We are not trying to attack a group of people here, nor are we trying to attack a religion. We are only exposing a teaching in a religion that could have a serious effect on society.

It is also important to know that in exercising Jihad, Muslim extremists may not think they are trying to maliciously hurt others, but rather they are only obeying God's commandments. And in doing so, they are assuring themselves a place in Paradise.

Jihad (Holy War)

Jihad is one of many sacred duties Muslims perform. The word "Jihad" is an Arabic word which means "struggle". Jihad can mean striving to be a better Muslim, but it can also mean fighting in the name of Allah. In this sense Jihad is the struggle for the cause of spreading Islam, using all means available to Muslims, including force. This kind of Jihad is often referred to as "Holy War".

In resorting to force, Muslims will not have any problem finding passages in the Quran (believed by Muslims to be Allah's word), and the Hadith (Mohammed's sayings as recorded by Al Bukhari), that will not only condone violence, but will also demand it.

Jihad in the "Quran"

Allah orders Muslims in the Quran to terrorize non-Muslims on His behalf:

"Strike terror (into the hearts of) the enemies of Allah and your enemies" Surah 8:60
"Fight (kill) them (non-Muslims), and Allah will punish (torment) them by your hands, cover them with shame" Surah 9:14
"I will instil terror into the hearts of the unbelievers, smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them It is not ye who slew them; it was Allah" Surah 8:12, 17
Jihad in the "Hadith"

In the Hadith Mohammed also urges Muslims to practice Jihad.

Mohammed once was asked: what is the best deed for the Muslim next to believing in Allah and His Apostle? His answer was : "To participate in Jihad in Allah's cause" Al Bukhari vol. 1:25

Mohammed was quoted as saying : "I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, none has the right to be worshipped but Allah" Al Bukhari vol. 4:196

Mohammed also said, "The person who participates in (Holy Battles) in Allah's cause and nothing compels him to do so except belief in Allah and His Apostle, will be recompensed by Allah either with a reward, or booty (if he survives) or will be admitted to paradise (if he is killed)." Al Bukhari vol. 1:35.

Mohammed: an Example

When the prophet of Islam started preaching his new religion in Mecca, he was conciliatory to Christians and Jews. He told them: "We believe in what has been sent down to us and sent down to you, our God is the same as your God" Surah 29:45. This attitude changed completely after he gained strength. Allah then tells him to "Fight People of the Book (Christians and Jews), who do not accept the religion of the truth (Islam), until they pay tribute (penalty tax) by hand, being inferior. " Surah 9:29

Regarding Christians and Jews, it seems that Mohammed hated the Jews more. During his life time, Mohammed devoted much of his efforts to get rid of the Jews: "You (Jews) should know that the earth belongs to Allah and his apostle, and I want to expel you from this land (the Arabian Peninsula), so, if anyone owns property, he is permitted to sell it" Mohammed was quoted.

At that time there were in Medina three Jewish tribes. Two of them, the Qaynqa and the Bani-al-Nudair tribes, were besieged by Mohammed's men, blocking their access to food supplies, until they surrendered on Mohammed's terms, which were that their lives would be spared, that they must emigrate from Medina, and that they must deposit all their belongings at a certain place for distribution among Muslims.

The third tribe, Bani Qurayza, was not as lucky. After the War of the Trench , in which Mohammed was besieged by the Qurayshites led, by Abu Sofyan, it was alleged that Bani Qurayza agreed to provide help from within to Abu Sofyan's forces. Although the alleged help did not materialize and the siege eventually ended, nevertheless, Mohammed never forgave them for their willingness to help his enemies.

Muslims turned against Bani Qurayza and blocked their streets for twenty five days. The Jewish tribe expressed readiness to accept the surrender terms which had been conceded to the other two Jewish tribes, namely cession of their belongings and departure with safe conduct.

Mohammed, however, would not consent to this, and instead appointed as an arbiter Saad iben Moaz, a man who was known to be on bad terms with Bani Qurayza. Saad ruled that all Bani Qurayza's men should be beheaded, that the women and children should be sold as slaves, and that all their property should be divided among the Muslims. Trenches were dug in the bazaar of Medina for disposal of the nine hundred Jewish bodies whom Mohammed had spent the night slaughtering. (See Ibn Hisham: The Prophet's biography ; vol. 2 pages 40 & 41)

Dear friends

These are historical facts that happened 14 centuries ago, they represent a dangerous tendency for violence in the Muslim fundamentalist mentality. More serious is that Muslim fundamentalists are trying to repeat these acts of violence in this 21st century.

Guard our freedom and democracy. Let Jesus' message of tolerance and non-violence rules our land "Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword". Matthew 26:52

Joel

[Jammrock]

Gurm,

Apology accepted. Just don't go bashing my people in public again If you have any questions about our discussion, you're welcome to ICQ or email me.

I'm sorry if I came down on you too hard. Sometimes I get really pissed when people openly attack things I hold dear, as most American's have been doing as of late.

Jammrock

[Rags]

Originally posted by Jammrock
Just don't go bashing my people in public again

Jammrock, I know you said this in passing, but I would like to think that your religion and most others, and even most atheists out in the world would like to believe we are all each other's people. If only the extremists didn't take the view that the people that share their same beliefs are "their people", then maybe we could be without these problems.....it's amazing how many different people mormon, islamic, catholic, christian, athesist all share the same core values.....if only we based religion on values rather than bickering over the stories.

Rags

[Wombat]

Hey KvH. I thought of something you should read:

<BR><I>
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
</I><BR>

I just thought you might want to read it. It's called the First Amendment of the BIll of Rights. It applies everywhere, to everyone in this country; even in Texas.

If you don't like it, go start you own damn country.

[KvHagedorn]

And as for KvH: the world would be a lot better without people of your opinion. But, you have your right to say what you want. Everybody does, in this country (thank God). But you, I, and everyone else would be better if you talked less, and thought more.

Still thinking about this one.. perhaps you should be more specific when telling me what my opinions are, or am I just a bigot?

If the opinion you are referring to is that we should not let Islam destroy us by using our own freedoms against us, perhaps you are right. Forgive me for thinking such a thing. The world would be much better if we just let bin Laden's people kill us all in the name of their "religion." Surely we all deserve to die for the sin of being Americans. How could I have not thought this through more? Boy am I stupid.

Hey KvH. I thought of something you should read:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

I just thought you might want to read it. It's called the First Amendment of the BIll of Rights. It applies everywhere, to everyone in this country; even in Texas.

If you don't like it, go start you own damn country.

Let's see, according to this here dokement (forgive me for being slow, I'm just a stupid Texan, after all) I don't have to start my own country. All I have to do is start my own religion. "Prohibiting the free exercise thereof".. hmm... does that mean if my religion says that all of a certain group must die just for belonging to that group, the government can't prohibit me from exercising these tenets? While you're thinking about that, I'll just drop a grenade in your shorts.

You see, bin Laden in the name of Mohammed does exactly this.. he says all Americans must be killed in the name of Islam, just for being Americans. And he thinks our hands are tied because the constitution will not allow us to do anything against a recognized religion. Of course he's wrong, and this would not stand up in a court of law, but he has thought of this as well.. who cares about a court of law? This is war.. it is a war of subterfuge and one of the weapons he uses is the sowing of doubt into our will to oppose him. He will stop at nothing, use every means he has, which includes turning our own laws against us in the fight. Well, I will serve notice right here and now, and this goes for 90% of the other stupid hicks here in Texas at least.. we will let nothing stand in the way of defending ourselves and our families. We will not be fooled by rhetoric and lies while the enemy stabs us in the back. We will fight as dirty as our opponent is willing to in order to win.

And Wombat, now it's time for you to think.. what will the constitution and all else Americans hold dear in time of peace be worth if America doesn't win? That is my point in all I have said. If you are against the enemy and want him defeated as much as I do here at home (which is his chosen front), perhaps you will add some constructive ideas as to how to defeat him, if you think mine are so poorly thought out. Or do you just want to sit there and criticise, seeking to sow doubt into our will to win?

[The PIT]

Wombat there was a lot of thinking before the 2nd world war and look what happened there.
Extremists like you to think and worry about killing people and being killed yourself because it gives them to time to plan more evil.
I hope you don't think like this if you get called up and end up in the mountains of Afghanistan. By the time you've decided it's a good idea to pull the trigger your head will ready been blown off.
As I write more rumours are flying around that dustbin liner is planning more attacks. If they're true where? America again Britain another Nato country ?
KvHagedorn. Although I don't agree with every thing you say you've said a lot of true things which people don't like. The truth hurts isn't that the saying. I've been asked to print some of your comments out for poeple and many have agreed with some of your statements.

[Joel]

And if a few people would take the time to do alittle research on this then they may start to see where he is coming from. And the only things you really need to do is read thier Holy Book, the Quran, which is suppose to be the word of God sent down to Muhammad via the angel Gabriel and the "Hadith", which is a record of Mohammed's words and deeds according to his wives, relatives, and companions.

Joel