Headline in my local paper today.

[Wombat]

Joel,
Every religion has their nutcases. If you want Christian fundamentalists, just look at the Church of the (Christian) Identity.

nor was it supported by the church

Actually, the Catholic church was well behind the Crusades. Pope Urban II called for the First Crusade, after Peter the Hermit's report. Pope Eugenius III called for the Second Crusade. Pope Gregory VIII called for the Third Crusade. Pope Innocent III called the Fourth and Fifth, as well as the despicable Childrens' Crusade.

German Emperor Frederick II called the Sixth Crusade, and King Louis IX called for the Seventh and Eighth. Maybe that's what you are looking for.

A short, short, summary is here: http://www1.enloe.wake.k12.nc.us/enl...sadesPage.html

A not-as-short, and with good references, is here:

http://www.geocities.com/paulntobin/crusades.html

I hope you'll note that the Arab Muslims, who you bloodlust after so much, treated the non-Muslims especially well, even after Christian slayings. Saladin is of particular note, a wise Muslim leader, and still regarded as a great hero.

[KvHagedorn]

Hey Wombat, do you really want to sink to KvH's level and completely ruin this place? I don't think so. Just ignore him untill he's calmed down again.

I'm completely calm, and have been all along. I'm not the one thinking with my emotions here. I didn't say "**** you" to anyone here, did I? I am usually rather blunt, but I feel that's necessary to shake people up enough to reconsider the basis of their thinking. If I have hurt anyone's feelings on these boards I'm sorry, but if you are so vulnerable and impressionable that you believe my aim is just to be hurtful, perhaps you should wait until you are a bit more mature before you enter into such discussions.

[KvHagedorn]

I still assert that war, and that includes even the crusades, is never really about religion.

The first page you linked bears out my theory in its first sentence: "The Crusades resulted from the political upheaval caused by the expansion of the Seljuk Turks in the Middle East. Western Christians viewed with fear, the conquest of Syria and Palestine by these aggressive Muslims."

And even a slight perusal of that second linked page makes it clear that Tobin has an axe to grind with Christianity itself. I couldn't imagine a more biased source to read about the crusades.

[RedRed]

I was going to say nothing on this thread, and let it fester.... but since you included me in you virtol, joel, I think I must.

Joel
You tone is not just ignorant of fact, the abuse you have shown to other faiths is abhorrant.

I dont believe in any faith, particularly, but I respect the right of others to believe in whatever they want. You are moderator for this forum, and as such you are expected to maintain a reasoned and civil tone in your posts. Take a leaf from the book of the Other moderators in these fori.

I feel that you have been swept up on a wave of muslim-hate, without taking the time to study what the issue is about. I would hoe the you would take a moment to reflect on the hurt you might have caused to others in the world who might have read the waste that poured form keyboard. You are not publishing this to 'main street USA', or whatever.


Back to the point:
You might feel that the air war is justified - I dont. If the US really wants to destroy binladen or the taliban they have proved that they wont do it from the air. A report on the BBC news today stated that the put the Taliban casulties at 'the low hundreds' the US dont have anymore targets to bomb. Ground troops will be required. Will the US stand for bodybags? I dont think so.

Lets be honnest here - It doesnt look like the current tactics are working.

Regards
RedRed

[Rags]

[i]Originally posted by RedRed

I feel that you have been swept up on a wave of muslim-hate, without taking the time to study what the issue is about. I would hoe the you would take a moment to reflect on the hurt you might have caused to others in the world who might have read the waste that poured form keyboard. You are not publishing this to 'main street USA', or whatever.

I didn't see him state that he thinks you cannot practice any religion. I just gathered that he is pissed that people use religion as a saber.

Back to the point:
You might feel that the air war is justified - I dont. If the US really wants to destroy binladen or the taliban they have proved that they wont do it from the air. A report on the BBC news today stated that the put the Taliban casulties at 'the low hundreds' the US dont have anymore targets to bomb. Ground troops will be required. Will the US stand for bodybags? I dont think so.

Lets be honnest here - It doesnt look like the current tactics are working.

Regards
RedRed [/B]

Let's be honest here. You have no clue about the US strategy. They aren't bombing in efforts to kill Trash Bin Liner or the Tall Banana. You cannot just send in ground troops without setting up the invasion, there would be bodybags then. They are setting the table. You understand what setting the table means, right? We don't have a bunch of morons running the defense department.

Rags

[Wombat]

KvH, in my book, equating anyone to the Nazi party is far worse than any standard curse word.

[Rags]

Originally posted by Wombat
KvH, in my book, equating anyone to the Nazi party is far worse than any standard curse word.

Comparing people, parties, and religions is worse than cursing?

Oh goodness. Instead of crying about it, why not discuss it? Like having him line up his perceived similarities and such, then you can actually counter it. Instead of puting up a brick wall between one another over something like this, why not try to understand where each is coming from?

Otherwise it's going to end up like: "KvH, in my book, ...." "If the shoe fits...."
And it goes nowhere.

Rags

[KvHagedorn]

KvH, in my book, equating anyone to the Nazi party is far worse than any standard curse word.

The author of your book seems to be pretty biased..

I did that pointedly because I knew it would drive home my point, since you seek to censor and the Nazis are always the whipping boys for liberals who want to talk about censorship. (Which they use as their excuse in tipping the scales in the completely opposite direction and censoring the other side)

[RedRed]

Rags,
With comments like:

They follow a perverse religion that says that it is their duty to fight the 'infidels' (non-muslims) and to get them to either convert to Islam (by whatever means) or kill them.

and

And don't try to start carrying on that it is all about Israel. Israel has as much right, if not more so, to be where they are than anyone else. Israel afterall was there well over 5000 years before that perverted, satanic, a**hole Mohammud showed up and started spreading his preverted satanic religion.

If that isnt insulting anti-muslim sentiment then I dont know what is!

As to US strategy -
there doesnt seem to be one.... this didnt work in vietnam, and it isnt going to work in afghanistan! The 'pinpoint' accuracy of 'precision' bombing is as about as much use in this type of war as a baseball bat! The Afghan army dont have much in the way of infrastructure to destroy. The Northern Alliance trroms were complaining this morning to reporters that the US airstrikes so far had done more damage to their front thanb the taliban (destroyed part of a Northern Alliance village today, 10 MILEs behind their lines!!!) The Red Cross centre in Kabul has now been attaced - wait for it - THREE TIMES!!!!

Tha Afghan Army is not an army of 'fixed positions' that you can bomb with air supremicy. They dont move about in Eastern Bloc (or Iraqi) style divisions. Most of these guys are locals who go home in the evenings!!!

The Muslim world is catching light. Atrocities in Pakistan, thousands of fighters pressing to GET IN to Afghanistan. Possible Revolution in that country. Egypt and Saudi starting to boil.... The Lebanon - well we know about that...

Look at whats happening around the world. The Alliance will fail, if this is not resolved quickly. The US will not be able to sustain this operation alone. Ground troops will need to inserted, and soon.

My tuppence worth
RedRed

[Rags]

Originally posted by RedRed
Rags,
With comments like:



and



If that isnt insulting anti-muslim sentiment then I dont know what is!

As to US strategy -
there doesnt seem to be one.... this didnt work in vietnam, and it isnt going to work in afghanistan! The 'pinpoint' accuracy of 'precision' bombing is as about as much use in this type of war as a baseball bat! The Afghan army dont have much in the way of infrastructure to destroy. The Northern Alliance trroms were complaining this morning to reporters that the US airstrikes so far had done more damage to their front thanb the taliban (destroyed part of a Northern Alliance village today, 10 MILEs behind their lines!!!) The Red Cross centre in Kabul has now been attaced - wait for it - THREE TIMES!!!!

Tha Afghan Army is not an army of 'fixed positions' that you can bomb with air supremicy. They dont move about in Eastern Bloc (or Iraqi) style divisions. Most of these guys are locals who go home in the evenings!!!

The Muslim world is catching light. Atrocities in Pakistan, thousands of fighters pressing to GET IN to Afghanistan. Possible Revolution in that country. Egypt and Saudi starting to boil.... The Lebanon - well we know about that...

Look at whats happening around the world. The Alliance will fail, if this is not resolved quickly. The US will not be able to sustain this operation alone. Ground troops will need to inserted, and soon.

My tuppence worth
RedRed

The people who use their religion as a reason to kill do live by a perverse religion, that doesn't mean that the rest of the world who follows a version of that religion are being attacked. Get a clue.


As far as the military, this isn't vietnam. And yes we can win this alone if we have to. It's obvious you have no idea what you are talking about.

Time will show you to be very ignorant.

Rags

[RedRed]

Rags
What are you talking about? EVERY religion (even Bhuddism) has at some stage been used as an excuse for Killing. Calling the central Icon of a religion an a***hole is about as insulting as you can get!

Please don't get jerked off on military hardware - this will not be won in an F-16. It will only be won on the ground. If the Pentagon thaught that the war could be won by the US alone, do you think that colen powell, george bush and blair (2 states men, 1 idiot, you choose!) would not be running round the world, prommising aid for support?

The US has the might, it dosent have the INT, thats the purpose of the rest of the alliance.

Regards
RedRed

[RedRed]

Rags
I pray that I am ignorant - every night!

I know 1 or 2 things.... If a bomb blows up 1/2 mile away form you, its somebody elses problem, but it pisses you off. If someone is shooting from 1/2 mile away, it is much more personal.

This CANNOT be won from the air. If you are trying to kill 1 man, and destroy his organisation, without the INT, you wont get it. This is a big country, and all the Rockeyes and Cruse missiles in the world wont get him, if you dont know where to look. And the US doesnt know where to look. He might not even be in Afghanisan anymore.

Regards
RedRed

[Rags]

Rags
What are you talking about? EVERY religion (even Bhuddism) has at some stage been used as an excuse for Killing. Calling the central Icon of a religion an a***hole is about as insulting as you can get!

I know every religion has extremists. Extremists are the problem in the world. What do you suppose we do about them? Give them a hug? Please...
I don't agree with calling anyone's god an ****ole, or a central icon either.

Please don't get jerked off on military hardware - this will not be won in an F-16. It will only be won on the ground. If the Pentagon thaught that the war could be won by the US alone, do you think that colen powell, george bush and blair (2 states men, 1 idiot, you choose!) would not be running round the world, prommising aid for support?

The US has the might, it dosent have the INT, thats the purpose of the rest of the alliance.

Regards
RedRed

I don't have to jerk off to the US military strength. I just feel more secure in knowing that even if we had to, we could stomp anyone into the ground that would try to attack us.

The reason we are getting support is because we believe that other nations feel the same way we do about these people bombing citizens at will, and wish to not only help ourselves with their blessings, but help them at the same time. Of course it's easier with help. But don't let that fool you into thinking that we cannot defend ourselves.

As far as intelligence goes, we have plenty. Now that we have taken the gloves off in the intelligence department, we are unstoppable.

Rags

[Rags]

Originally posted by RedRed
Rags
I pray that I am ignorant - every night!

I know 1 or 2 things.... If a bomb blows up 1/2 mile away form you, its somebody elses problem, but it pisses you off. If someone is shooting from 1/2 mile away, it is much more personal.

This CANNOT be won from the air. If you are trying to kill 1 man, and destroy his organisation, without the INT, you wont get it. This is a big country, and all the Rockeyes and Cruse missiles in the world wont get him, if you dont know where to look. And the US doesnt know where to look. He might not even be in Afghanisan anymore.

Regards
RedRed

You don't need to pray for ignorance, I have full faith that you are.

I didn't say it can be won from the war. If you actually took the time to do some research, and even read what I wrote, then you would see we are not running an air war. Get a clue.

Rags

[KvHagedorn]

If that isnt insulting anti-muslim sentiment then I dont know what is!

But what if it's true? I know the politically correct crowd couldn't care less whether it was true or not, but what if it were?

Think about it folks.. some guy with perhaps more than a normal amount of charisma decides to start a religion and so he makes up all this stuff. Yeah, if I were some barbarian who had the bright idea of inventing a religion to bring together my tribes so we could conquer the world, I'd do it too. Oh, yeah.. I'd make sure that my religion allowed polygamy and glorified killing those with whom I disagree.. I'd invent some sort of sin-filled paradise to promise my ignorant barbarian subjects too, to make them fearless in battle. Seems like the "submission" refererred to in the word "Islam" is more to Mohammed's ideas than to God.