Joel's Islam questions answered

[The PIT]

RedRed I'll ignore your comment.

Another question since many religons belief they are the defacto standard and the true religon how do we know which one is right?

[Helevitia]

Oh god! not that question! this thread will never end!

[KvHagedorn]

Reclaiming lost lands is advocated by many groups, spiritual and secular.

Including one group you particularly like.. they started with the Rhineland in 1936..

And where would Islamic radicals draw the line? If they tried to take over the UK as TP has expressed fears of, and they were thrown out of there, that gives them the God-given right to go back "from whence they drove you out" and to "kill them wherever you find them?"

See how it works? It is blasphemy for our people to so much as set foot on Saudi soil, but they get to come here and live and have children and take over if they want to, and that's perfectly fine. It'd take 100 years or so, but that would be OK.. their women would be "good wives" and have many children while we pursue our utterly selfish Kantian existential destinies and die childless.. when they have their majority, they just vote out the U.S. constitution and enact Islamic law. Then they can blow up all our cathedrals and churches just like they did with those ancient buddhas in Afghanistan, and persecute those of us who survive..

The problem is, not enough of us care.. we care more about buying more stuff and getting wasted and propping up our own vanity than having children and a spiritual life and doing all the things that matter.. the family has no place where individualistic selfishness runs so rampant, so we are no doubt doomed. We are all such a bunch of dimwitted myopic suckers...

[Wombat]

Including one group you particularly like.. they started with the Rhineland in 1936..

Will you just come off it already? Contrary to your small-minded beliefs, I am not a fascist. There are few things that you could have said that are more insulting, and had you said this to my face you would find yourself knocked squarely on your ass. For you to even suggest that I "like" genocide, "like" concentration camps, "like" the grotesque experimentation, "like" the concept of inferior/superior races is preposterous. You can go to Hell.

[KvHagedorn]

That was sarcasm, Rob.

Further, I explained why I made the Gestapo reference in that thread. (I never even called you a Nazi. I inferred that you were ascribing to a doctrine of political correctness which polices our thoughts much like the Gestapo did in Nazi Germany.) I know you are left of center. I knew that because of this, the reference would hit home. Boy, did it ever! But you read with your emotions and got so angry you didn't see what I was trying to say. If you hate the repression of thought that the Nazis brought about, you should hate equally the same repression brought by the ACLU when they shamefully slur "God Bless America" by calling it "Hate speech."

Understand now?

[Joel]

Hey Wombat,

Someone on another forum tries to answer what your inquirying about in a way that makes alittle bit of sense. You have to remember the OT is about the histroy of man, the laws given to man, and the prophecies of the coming of Jesus Christ. The NT was God's new covent to man which was sealed with the birth, death and resurrection of our LORD Jesus Christ, the pure and sinless sacrifice for man. The thread that this was in was about whether the attacks on the WTC and the Pentagon was somehow God's judgement.

Master of Illusion-
I don't think you're the devil.
I just think you're honest.
Yes. God did those things. many other similar ones that you missed, or didn't have time to list. He did that. You are asking why, more or less. What the hostility of these good people here indicates is simply an inability to competantly answer your query. Well, either that or they just believe you are the devil. Forgive them, not because you're a christian (cuz clearly you're not) but just because the first thing you have to accept about christianity is that most christians really don't know what they're talking about.

Re: God's actions in the O.T. I don't know is the honest answer. But what these people are trying to get across is that as christians we pretty much believe that every single person on the face of the earth is less than deserving. Why? Because we all sin, and sinning is a bad thing that leads to death, for the individual -physically, mentally, emotionally, and spiritually (by which I mean your soul ultimately goes to hell), as well as for the family, community, etc. Our sins create burdens on the world in general. This is a Truth that I do firmly believe in.
Therefore, considering that we are all undeserving, it is kind of God that when He chooses to wipe out people, He doesn't wipe out us all. Then there's the hardening hearts part. I don't know that one either. I kinda have a theory that I had to work up in order to move past that part. Some of this is exactly from the Bible, some of it is me trying to figure things out, so first let me say that you can't depend on what I say here to be the exact Biblical truth. I'm sure folks will come in and point out when I get too far off base.

God could not send Jesus until the time was right. In the meantime, all He could really do as far as getting people to know and love Him goes, was to be laying the groundwork for when Jesus did come. That's basically what the entire O.T. was about. Showing us the law, so that we would know sin, challenging us to keep the law, thereby showing us that we couldn't, and at the same time showing us His great Love and Provision in His guidance of the Jews. Also at the same time He was laying the prophetic and geneological groundwork so that Jesus might be known when He came. In the meantime, many people perished without ever knowing God. Was it God's fault that they didn't know Him? I don't think so. I think they forgot Him over the generations of seperation, in many cases they jsut got all the details mixed up. So why didn't God come and talk with them personally like He did with the Israelites? I actually believe that the reason He was able to commune with the Israelites was because through His careful care of them, over the years there appeared various (comparably)righteous men who still held Him in their memories. He didn't talk to all of them, or even most of them, just to a few (comparably) righteous men from time to time.
Basically -and yes this is somewhat cold- those other peoples had to die so that God's ultimate plan for our ultimate redemption could be fulfilled. If the Israelites had been destroyed by any of those people, God's testimony would have been lost. He did not choose the "Israelites", (although He did name them) He chose a (comparably) righteous man whom He could trust. Then He stuck with him and his descendants as He promised Abraham He would. And have you considered the story of Isaac? No it doesn't answer your questions, nothing does that simply. But it tells of how God asked Abraham to give Him his son's life, to sacrifice Isaac of the alter of burnt offerings. Abraham -believe it or not- loved God and trusted Him so much that he was willing to do this. Didn't he love Isaac? Yes of course he did, but he knew God, and was familiar with God's ways and so trusted Him. God stopped Abraham just in time. Then God promised Abraham that through his seed the world would receive a savior. And you'll notice that that sacrifice was one thet God did not stop. His own Son He let die, to show us His love, and to bring us back to Him. And also to bear the brunt and pay the price of our sins. With our sins paid for, we are able to reconcile ourselves to God, if we will.

Now, I've had it explained to me, that Jesus's death also paid the price of the sins of those who came before Him, ie. O.T. peoples. What happened to them all I dunno. Heaven or hell, I can't say. But we do all have a little something in us, that God puts there, I call it my homing signal, and the huge problem with this signal isn't that most of us didn't get one, it's that we haven't been shown how to recognixze it as what it is. We hear God calling us, and chalk it up to sentimentality, weakness, old age, fear, or even left behind remnants of our ancestor's silly beliefs.

There's also the story of what's it city? The one with Lot? I think it was Sodom. He warned it was gonna be destroyed, and Lot - a human with a heart, (much like yourself)- begged of God not to destroy it for the sakes of the righteous people that might dwell within it. Lot almost seemed to be testing God, saying just how much do you love us? Do you really care about each and every one of us, or would you wipe us out without a second thought? He asks God if there are fifty righteous souls would He save it? Yes. 20? Yes. 10? Yes. 5? Yes. What about only one person God? Would you save it all, and go on forebearing, just for the sake of one? GOD SAID YES! But as it turned out, there weren't any righteous souls dwelling in that city, because as you should know, sins do multiply and spread, they are contagious and ruinous, and lead to death. Even while still living, if living under the burdens of sin, you are dead, and there is no joy in your life worth having.

Now a person with a heart would say, well, isn't that for them to decide? WHo are any of us to tell any one else that their life is worthless? But God is in charge, and if He so chose to eliminate certain sin filled peoples, then knowing His character as I vbelieve I do, I have to guess that He did so for very good reasons. Add events like this one up with His commandments for seperation, and the sum is that He didn't want Israel to become infected to death with sin. It's like He had a bunch of children whom He was trying to keep clean. But children just have a way of getting dirty, and are very attracted to mud besides. God couldn't keep them from picking their noses or spilling food on their shirts, but He could keep them away from mud puddles.

Now you are offended because I have compared people to mud puddles. Let me put it this way. I have kids. And if I had God's powers, I probably wouldn't hesitate to wipe out the possible sources of corruption from their lives.

I don't know if all that helped or not, probably all rambly like I usually am. You've obviously been reading your Bible, or have at some time in the past. I'd say keep reading it. It's good to ask other christians, and often they can help you to understand, or point out things in the text you hadn't noticed before or whatever, but you cannot depend on christians to correctly explain God to you. Believe me, I've been trying it. Alot of them just believe what their pastors tell them to, alot don't really even know what they believe, and alot of them are not truly given themselves over To God, and so only think they know what they're talking about. I don't know what I'm talking about either, but I do understand where you're coming from. Frankly I only find it odd that more people don't even ever bother to ask that question. Which is why they don't know how to answer it.

You sound about as hostile as I was when I first came here. Pray to God, read His bible, and everything that you hear from christians -take it with a grain of salt. Then check it to what the bible says. If you're just starting out, but really do desire to know the Truth, I believe you'll find it in God's word, and the Spirit within you will confirm it. You do not need (or even want) christian confirmation. Also if you're just starting out with the Bible, I'd recommend two things that might help you to better understand what it is you're reading. First a HAlley's Bible Handbook, and second a Topical Bible. Halley's gives you good background info. on where the books came from, when where why etc etc, and also archeological insights, and short "summarizations" of each chapter, which believe it or not, can be very helpful. The topical bibles list verses by subject. Take for instance opn this subject you might look up war or military or some such word like that, and it will list all the verses dealing directly with that subject. I use the Nave's one, and sometimes it's wrong, so you gotta take that with agrain of salt and a checking of the actual Bible too. How was the verse used originally etc.

To the exact subject of this thread, my opinion is this. No God did not do this or plan this. (But I could be wrong.) I do however believe that He may have known it was going to happen, maybe even has always known. And I strongly believe that He will bring good out of it. God's afflictions are to refine us.

Joel

[Joel]

[2.191] And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter

Here's what the Bible tells us to do about those that persecute us.

Mt 5:11 - "Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake.

Mt 5:44 - But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you,

Mt 10:23 - When they persecute you in this city, flee to another. For assuredly, I say to you, you will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

Mt 23:34 - Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city,

Lu 11:49 - Therefore the wisdom of God also said, 'I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they will kill and persecute,'

Lu 21:12 - But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons. You will be brought before kings and rulers for My name's sake.

Joh 15:20 - Remember the word that I said to you, 'A servant is not greater than his master.' If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you. If they kept My word, they will keep yours also.

Ac 7:52 - Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who foretold the coming of the Just One, of whom you now have become the betrayers and murderers,

Ro 12:14 - Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse.

So the Koran is basically telling us that God is now saying 'forget what I said before, I was wrong, go out and kill them instead'. I'm sorry to say this but they are not just killing in self defense. They feel that it is a mandate from God for them to go and kill anyone who will not accept Islam as the one and only true religion.

Koran 9:29
Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last day, nor hold the forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and his messenger, nor acknowledge the Religion of Truth from among the People of the Book, until they pay the Jiziyah with willing submission. And feel themselves subdued.

Joel

[Sasq]

ok guys i'm not going to wade into this in anyway shape or form but i do have a copy of the koran in text file form for those who are interested in reading it.

Size is about 300k in zipped form.

The CD its on also has every thing from AESCHYLS to VARMANI
(also complete Shakespear, Poe etc)

If you want a copy just leave me a private msg and i'll email it to you.

Dan

[Jammrock]

I've got a slightly less lengthy explaination about the OT, NT and today. Joel has the basics down, I'll try to explain a bit more from this Christian's perspective:

If you think about the progression of the people in the OT, there are different degrees of 'righteousness' and law, depending on who their leader is and other circumstances. On one end of the spectrum you had the people in Noah's day who weren't very nice, and God flooded the Earth. On the opposite end you had the people of Enoch that were so good that God took their city off the Earth and let them dwell in heaven. Eventually God picked out his chosen people from the offspring of Abraham, Issac and Jacob, which were called the Twelve Tribes of Isreal (Judah being one of them, which are now called the Jews).

The TTI were saved by Joseph in Egypt and dwelt there for many generations. At the changing of the gaurd in Egypt, the TTI went from good friends of the Pharaoh to slaves of the Pharaoh. This led to several generations of slavery. During this time, much of the TTI forgot their fathers ways and started worshipping the gods of Egypt, until some guy named Moses came along.

Moses led the TTI out of Egypt (God wasn't very merciful to the TTI's old slave masters in the process) and into "the wilderness". There God decided to lay down the law. If you remember the FULL story of Moses' trip into Mount Sinai, Moses went to the peak, talked to God and came down with the law on tablets. When he reached the bottom the TTI were worshipping a golden calf and Moses threw down the tablets, breaking them, chastened the TTI, and then went back up. God gave Moses a different law, which is considered a 'lower law' (and there are many Biblical proofs). This is the law of 'eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth', the law of scarifice, the ten commandments and all that jazz.

Therefore, the books of the OT are mostly the TTI while under the Mosaic law. After Isreal fell to king Nebachnezzer (however you spell that name), 10 of the twelve tribes became lost, and only Judah and small part of Benjamin were left in any number.

Skipping past a bunch of history and prophecy, we reach the time of the NT (New Testement, not New Technology). Here is where people of Christian belief, including me, is where Jesus Christ, the son of God, came down and finally delivered the 'higher law', that was thrown down the mountian side many millenia before on Mount Sinai. The new law was originally for only the remainder of the TTI (at this point Judah and a VERY small part of Benjamin), as Christ said on several occasions that he was there to teach only the Jews, who were basically all that was left of the TTI in Isreal.

Skipping a bit more into the NT, after most of the Jews rejected the new law, Christ's disciples are taught to open the law to 'all of God's children' and Christianity is born. Until then it was merely a sect of the Jewish faith...

Phew...now on to today! AFAIK, Jews don't rightly follow the NT, so they still go by the complete Law of Moses, while many others only use things like the Ten Commandments and so forth. Muslims I don't think really believe in the law Christ brought, as they say Mohammed brought the new law of Allah down. So you have the Jews who technically/historically believe in an eye for eye and the Muslims that believe that the Jews took thier land, and so they should be driven out and killed, all living together in a land they both find holy (only Mecca is holier to the Muslims).

And thus we see why there will probably never be peace in the Middle East.

Jammrock

[KRSESQ]

All of this is moot since we all know the one true religion is Rastafarianism.

Kevin

[The PIT]

But how can you be sure ???

[KRSESQ]

Bob Marley appeared to me in a dream, floating on a pink Easter-grass cloud, and said "Hey, mon. Dey got some kickin' s**t up here!"

Kevin

PS Maybe I should write a Bible. If Joseph Smith could do it...

[DentyCracker]

KRSESQ
ROTFLMAO
I went to the same high school as two of Bob Marley's sons. Ziggy is my age but was a year below me, Stephen was in my younger brother's class.

[Jammrock]

Don't make me hurt you, KRSESQ.

Jammrock

[RedRed]

Ok.

So the Jewish faith (lets call it stream A) breaks off at the arrival of Jesus Christ.

Stream B (Christianity) Takes the books from stream A and adds Some of the the Gospels (well added them all and then dropped some of them) and then adds some letters (Corinthians Etc)

Stream C (the Mulsim faith) takes stream A (Moses, elijha etc) the main gospels of the stream B and edits it and then adds its own book, the Koran.

Early Koran is fairly consistant with the stream B stuff (I say 'fairly'), (its got stuff like dont brag - the voice of a bragger is like the braying of a donkey). Later koran is closer to the stream A stuff - Kill those who take your lands.

Is it safe to say that the early Koran is closer to the NT than the NT is to the OT? From what I have read, this seems to be the case. (I have read about 70 pages of my version of the Koran so far)

As the Koran is probably closer to the original text of what was said - much of Genesis was based on Babylonian Myth, and the Hebrew tribes had no writing until well after the babelonian times, and the NT was not written by a bunch of fishermen directly into Greek, where does that leave us?


Is this a fair enough description? I really wanna get my head around this!!!


Important!!!!
I am not trying to disrespect ANYONES belief, I follow Christian Principles myself, as I feel that they are a suitable Moral and Ethical code, NOT because I believe in a particular flavour. I just want to understand the subelties.
I am not sure how one can quote various parts of the New Testament , and still call for the invasion of another country? Joel Quotes several references from the New Testament:

Mt 5:44 - But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you,

Mt 10:23 - When they persecute you in this city, flee to another. For assuredly, I say to you, you will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

Mt 23:34 - Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city,

Lu 11:49 - Therefore the wisdom of God also said, 'I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they will kill and persecute,'

do these quotations, while used to highlight differences between the Koran and the New Testament, not suggest that a true Christian should also not retaliate?

The last two quotes also seem to suggest, and again I do not mean to disrespect anyones faith, that there would be further Prophets (perhaps including Mahommid)?


Take Care

RedRed