Joel's Islam questions answered

[KvHagedorn]

I have a problem when one person's beliefs calls for the conquest/removal of people that don't share those believes. e.g. More than once the blanket call for eliminating all Islamic governments has been made.

So you wanted European fascism eliminated, but you want Islamic fundamentalist regimes to be allowed to flourish? You are saying fascists are OK so long as they are of a different culture than your own.

I really wonder how happy you would be if your attitudes succeeded in weakening this country's resolve to the point where we stopped fighting and allowed the Islamic fundamentalists to just take over. It wouldn't happen in your lifetime, but if your attitude prevailed, it would surely happen eventually. Would you really want to be your grandchildren then, being forced to live in a fascist Islamic state here in the U.S.? The only thing worse than having to live in Nazi Germany as a German would have been having to live there as a Jew. That would be our fate if we allowed those people to have their way. They see a future where Islam dominates the world. Are you saying this is the future you want?

[Jammrock]

Thank you Wombat for showing my point about science Once you leave the present physical world it's all a matter of perception and is highly subject to change.

http://www.usatoday.com/weather/science/wonderquest/photonmass.htm

http://hepweb.rl.ac.uk/ppUK/PhysFAQ/photon_mass.html

As for Mr. Electron, you can say you have proof that it's an electron hitting the goldfoil or whatever other test you're doing, but in the end you're still guessing. What does an electron look like anyway?

I choose to believe science as my proof, and not the unfounded writings of man.

Um...who do you think writes the scientific proofs you read? God?

Jammrock

[efty]

Why would one believe in a GOD?

Why would anyone believe in a god? What is the point of doing so? Do you really think that if god exists, he will care if I believe in him or not? If I was a good Muslim/Jew/Christian?

One year ago I believed that humanity has reached a critical stage in its evolution. I thought that we, or at least plenty of us would be able to overcome the barrier of religion and the need to believe in a god. It seems though that we are not ready yet. Last semester I took a jewish studies class. We studied the bible in detail not as a religious text book, but from a historical and cultural perspective. The professor simply presented the evidence about the bible, accepted theories in the biblical studies community, and so many students simply could not accept the truth. The bible was not written by Moses, the Bible is a compination of stories from various cultures, the bible( at least the first 5 books) was written by at least 4 different ppl. There are 2 Genesis stories in the bible and 2 flood stories. There are some very nasty things in the Bible, but no one refers to them? Because they don't need to... The same applies to the NT. When all is good, who cares about killing and driving out the enemy. No reason to call for divine justice. But when everything goes to hell like in many Muslim states, then ppl start reading their holly books and try to find what is wrong. But if you are doing everything by the book, then u r not blame, something else is wrong... or at least thats what their religious leaders lead them to believe.

Anyway, I have mixed everything up. Religion is a good thing when used properly. It can help nations recover. It hold the ppl together and gives a sense of community. However religion can also be used to control ppl. Keep them blindfolded and drive them wherever u want. This is why I hate religion.

Yes, I personally hate all religions and their religious leaders, because those ****oles have been taking advantage of humanity for thousands of years, they have been killing and slaughtering in the name of a god who they don't know shit about. And yes it is still hapening today. Muslims killing Christians, Christians killing Muslims and I don't know what else.

I am not an atheist but I don't believe in a god either.

I hope u make sense of what I wrote...

Efty

[The PIT]

Yes Joel Muslims are allowed to practise their religon freely here in the UK. We even allow terrorists to come and live here and go around there life freely. So far we haven't managed to let Terrorists from opposite sides live next door to each other but no doubt we'll manage it in the future.

[Wombat]

Joel and KvH,
Other people choose not to run their countries the way you or I wish to live. Invading other territories to expand that is a different issue. I agree it's hard to draw the line though.
The US was perfectly fine with the rise of the Nazi party to its power in Germany. Hey, cheap German goods, right? We even held an official "non-agression" policy as the Nazis spread across Europe. Once the Axis powers hit us, <I>then</I>, and only then did we get pissed off.
If another sovereign country wishes not to allow worship of another religion, well, I don't consider it the most enlightened position, but it isn't our country to run. Shary'ah is something I know that I will not understand completely. I can't really combine secular and spiritual law, just as some places can't separate them. Luckily, I live in a country that follows my beliefs, and I will fight to protect them, but I don't think it's our business to make sure that other places "allow our beliefs".
We don't even expect our "beliefs" to be followed by our own companies. $20 says that each one of you reading this is wearing some shirt, or sweater, or shoe made by slave-wage laborers in a 3rd world country in working conditions that would NEVER be allowed in your country. Just so your favorite company can make that much more profit, and you get to pay slightly less for that "hand-stitched" soccer ball. Something to think about when you're eating that next hamburger that cost 1/2 of permanently-scarred rain forest.

Why are Christians denied to openly practice their religion in some of the Islamic countries? Why are Christians jailed for telling Muslims about Christianity? If I'm not also mistaken are not Muslims allowed to build Mosque and openly practice their religion in the US and the UK? Inquiring minds want to know.

That's their interpretation of their religion in a spiritually based government. I for one am glad that I live in a country where church and state must remain separate, but it's not for everybody. We pretty much allow freedom of religion here, and I think that's wonderful. Rah, rah, yea to us. Religion follows other speech guidelines, i.e. "your right to swing your fists ends at my nose."
We must remember that this wasn't an easy position to come to. The first European settlers of the US came in order to set up their own theocracy, one that wasn't allowed in their English homeland. People were cast out for having differing views, or tortured and killed as "witches".
We can be snobbish and consider our structure a "superior" form, but we definitely have our skeletons of religious persecution as well. We're not even there yet. People are still losing their jobs or other positions because they happen to follow a non-mainstream religion. And this "faith-based funding" is bound to be a civil rights quagmire.

[KvHagedorn]

Efty, it is (in the very least) an extremely arrogant attitude to presume that God does not exist, and to, in so many words, call those who do believe in Him primitive.

It is obvious that you are very young and have little experience with the trials of this life. When you get older, and are feeling a bit more mortal, I hope you will be more understanding of the needs of people. Religion gets a bad rap when people use it as an excuse for war, but you have to understand that reality isn't what you see on the news every day. Truly religious people are not really glamorous enough or upsetting enough to get airtime on news broadcasts, or to be the subject of some college course. (Professors, too, are fallible. Perhaps moreso because their position feeds their arrogance, which causes them to err despite their intellect.) As I said before, war is never really about religion. It is about nationalism.

People are only human, and that includes you. We will never be so perfect as God, but if we were, we would surely lose our humanity in so being. Perhaps that is one of the best reasons for believing in God, which is to have someone to look up to, and to inspire our aspiration.

[Jammrock]

eftychios,

KvH spelled out most of what I wanted to say, but I do have a few things to add. First off, if you don't believe in god, but don't deny the possibility (or care enough to learn) you are considered 'agnostic'. Not all relegion is bad. Assuming that all relegion is bad because of certain groups actions is what is called stereotyping. You are correct in saying that many people do evil things in the name of their beliefs, but for every one of those people there are 2-3 who are very good, wholesome people. You just don't hear about them on CNN, because it's not shocking enough to get good ratings.

I thought that we, or at least plenty of us would be able to overcome the barrier of religion and the need to believe in a god.

Not with you here. What barrier do think relegion causes? If there was no relegion do you truly think all bad things would go away? Do you think people would stop hungering after power and prestige? Do you think people would stop gathering around banners of nationalism if they can't gather around a spiritual banner? Do you think people would magically become nice to each other?

Jammrock

[efty]

Show me proof and I will believe

Yes, I maybe arrogant, but at least I am not as arrogant as some people that claim divine knowledge.

I am not that naive to believe that religion is the cause of all evil in this world. I just think that we can do without it. We do not need the Koran, the Bible or whatever other religious textbook is out there to tell us how to lead our lifes.

Yes, I am only 24 years old. I may not know enough about life, but what I know is that we should strive for something beyond religion. Beyond the circumstancial belief in a god. We should not seek redemption in some afterlife. We should realize that maybe when we die that is the end. How many ppl can live with that?

Efty

[KRSESQ]

It's easy to justify belief in God as a scientific theory, without looking any further than Project SETI for an example.

Consider: The universe is comprised of hundreds of millions of galaxies (a conservative estimate), each containing hundreds of billions of stars (again, a conservative estimate).

It is possible for each galaxy to contain tens of millions of intelligent species of life, many of which will eventually develope technological societies. Further, many will be thousands, or millions, or perhaps even billions of years evolved beyond humanity. Certainly, such a highly evolved being would be God-like from our perspective. How could we hope to guess it's motives, or judge whether we are worthy of it's interest?

Arthur C. Clarke stated that "any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." The logical corollary is that any sufficiently evolved intelligence is indistinguishable from God.

Kevin

[RedRed]

eftychios
You are entitled to your beliefs (and you do sound like an agnostic. Thats cool.

Jammrock & Kvh
Should he not feel the need to believe in a structured religion, there is nothing wrong with that. Yes, perhaps some of his structures were a little basic, but hey! they are still valid.

Kvh
The war is NOT about imposing the 'american way' on fundimentalist islamic countries.... They do what they need to to keep some sort of order to the country.... that is why they are there (sponsored and supplied by Pakistan, a coalition member). Remember the objectives.... This country that is being attacked now has been through seven hells! You cannot expect any other type of regieme to withstand almost 25 years of INTENSE fighting, with its warlords, then Russians, then Mujahadeen (warlords, backed by the CIA), talibahn.... You cannot expect any country to be normal after that, never mind the third poorest in the WORLD...


Back and Blocked!!!

RedRed

[Jammrock]

RedRed,

Efty's posts are very anti-"everything that has to do with relegion", not merely anti- organized relegion. Reread his posts.

Efty,

I'm still curious what kind of barrier you consider relegion to be?

Jammrock

[efty]

The barier of religion

I do not claim, that I know everything about the various religions out there. However most religions are eschatological in nature. Religious eschatologies are primarily concerned with the end of history, the resurrection of the dead, the Last Judgment, and related matters. Eschatology comes from the Greek synthetic word “Ýó÷áôïëoãéá”, meaning the study of the end.

The truth is that everyone is consumed by the fear of death. This is more evident in older people that are much more religious than younger ppl. As we grow older and feel time running out we become more and more obsessed with the end.

In ancient times, religion was used to explain natural phenomena, besides the "miracles" of birth and death. Nowadays, we do not need religion to explain the world surrounding us. But we still need religion to justify death, and make death more bareable. Or even make our own existance acceptable. Furthermore we use religion to justify all the wrong doings in the world. The basic concept of the most popular religions is that this world sucks big time. It is a hell hole and we are here as a test of endurance. The poorest and kindhearted will be rewarder in afterlife, the rich and powerfull will go to hell.

Aha, in otherwords.... you little suckers, working class, blue collars, farmers whatever sit where u r, work hard and endure because life sucks after all, BUT you will be rewarded when u die. Maybe that is not the exact case in western societies but it is the case in many other societies. Those ppl are being exploited, tortured and brainwashed into believing that thats the way life is.

Christianity Caused the Dark Ages in Europe, the same way it is happeneing to a certain extent to the Muslim states. Religions that stress redemption in afterlife are the worst.

Now why would we as humanity overcome the need to believe in a god? The reason is very simple. Because we have no evidence pointing to the existence of a god. And don't tell me about the Bible/NT/Jesus/ Alah/Koran. All those are human creations with all the defects a human can have.

[Wombat]

/me builds asbestos igloo so I can have really good seats to watch this.

[Joel]

There are 2 Genesis stories in the bible and 2 flood stories.

Could you please explain????

Joel

[efty]

2 genesis 2 Flood stories

I was wrong when I said 2 genesis, I meant creation.

Book of Genesis
Creation 2 2:4-25
Creation 1 1:1-2:3


The flood story. If I could find my Bible I would have written both stories down. These stories were interwoven to each other to look as one. However the differences are quite obvious

Flood 1 by J Source
6:5-8,7:1-5,7,10,12,16b-20,22-23,8:2b-3a,6,8-12,13b,20-22

Flood 2 by P source
6:9-22,7:8-9,11,13-16a,21,24
8:1-2a, 3b-5,7,13a,14-19;
9:1-17


BTW these are not my discoveries. I just copied them from a book by Richard Elliot Friedman called "Who wrote the Bible". I highly recommend it.