Joel's Islam questions answered

[Jammrock]

If we are unable to explain something then we automatically we try to explain it through religion and the existence of a god. The same exact way people used to do thousands of years ago when they had a sun god etc.

Huh? So you're saying that there has never been a single religious scientist in the entire history of mankind? Just because you believe in god doesn't make you some total idiot that thinks everything in life is a direct action of unseen mystical forces. Where do you get these ideas from?

Jamrock please show me the evidence, direct or indirect.

HEY! It's JamMrock...two 'M's buddy! Pay attention!

The question is not whether I can provide direct or indirect evidence, the question is whether you will accept it. If I told you I have seen God, would you believe me As has been shown a dozen times over in this thread alone, nearly any proof can be twisted to meet your own demands. Now let's define proof real quick like. There is proof that electrons (my favorite topic in this thread) exist as they are currently defined by science, but there is no absolute proof we are right, as all evidence of electrons is indirect (back to the, have you ever seen one question). There is proof that black holes exist, but no one's 100% sure they've found one, and no one has run any direct tests on one to make sure they're right (at least that we know of). So a 'scientific proof' does not necissarily mean, knowledge beyond a doubt, when indirect evidence is invloved.

To some people, the mere order of the universe is proof enough. Explosions don't create flowers, they create chaos (trust me). Was it truly just some random physical forces that caused the universe to be how it is, so organized and ordered, or was it a being(s) that organized the matter into useful things? Arthur C. Clarke brings up a valid counter-arguement, but that doesn't mean it's not possible. And since the possibility does exist, no matter how small you think it is, it thereby becomes an indirect proof. I can't prove I'm right, you can't prove I'm wrong.

"I cannot believe that God would choose to play dice with the universe."
"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." -Albert Einstein

I've seen other proofs before, but I don't really care for them. Search the web, there are hundreds of proofs and theroms. To me the search for God is more of a spiritual matter. If I need to learn how to fly, I read a physics and an aviation book.

Now to counter you, I ask the opposite: please show me evidence, direct or indirect, that god does not exist?

JamMrock

[Jammrock]

"Indirect evidence" could mean virtually anything to anyone.

My advise for arguing with creationists is simple: Save your breath

The same can be said about evolutionists. But I'm niether a true creationist, nor a true evolutionist. I keep open to the fact that both of them are possible and plausible. And it could be...that they are interwoven and both true to a certain degree...hmmmmmmmm. Unlike certain people that truly believe they are 100% right and under no possible senerio could they ever be wrong

I think Mr. Lucas needs me to write Yoda's lines for Episode III

Jammrock

[Joel]

Hey, Joel. Did your Islam questions ever get answered?

I don't know. I done forgot what they were.

Guess I will have to go back and reread this thread and see.

Joel

[Sasq]

Jammrock, naaa you need to get the Japanese grammar down first to right Yoda's lines.

Re the asbestos Igloo I never left mine for this thread, got a nice heat proof glass window to look out of tho.

I am impressed with the quality of arguments so far in this thread.

The only thing I would like to contribute and I'm not a writer so I can't phrase it so eloquently as some.

Each of us has our own personal opinion of god(s), and we will each find our own god in our own time in our own way, wether it is the God from the OT/NT, the god of numbers, the one of cash or the one of small blue mushrooms. Our version of God is personal, I see god and have my own relation ship with god in my own way and I can't explain it to you any better then I can understand your exact relationship with 'your' god.

Yes there are people who use the name of their god for good or evil. (A lot of that evil bit seems to be hanging on the god of Cash atm ) or at times use the name of somebody else’s god for evil purposes. The thing we must do is look beyond the surface and see what the true story is.

And I'm going to spell this wrong but an interesting quote from the book 'Time enough for love' by Robert Heinlin was..

"The only true sin lies in hurting other people, hurting yourself is not sinful just stupid"

Oh well time to go back to that Asbestos Igloo and bolt the door.

Regards Dan

[RedRed]

There is proof that black holes exist, but no one's 100% sure they've found one, and no one has run any direct tests on one to make sure they're right (at least that we know of). So a 'scientific proof' does not necissarily mean, knowledge beyond a doubt, when indirect evidence is invloved.

Actually - they observed 34 of them them have now.....

Indirectly, of course... we are talking super massive black holes - formed at the time of the big bang, have been 'proved' to exist. A pulse of energy was observed from a nearby galaxy which could only have been emitted by a black hole eating a star system....

SMBH have been observed in this way before, but scientists never realised what they were, apparently. They have long been suspected of being the locus around spiral galaxys - now there is direct evidence. BTW the mass of a Super Massive Black Hole would be 0.15% of the mass of THAT GALAXY!!!!

Quasars are now by some thaught to be the the 'polar emmissions' of a SMBH in its formation stage when its eating millions of Suns - Black holes are not 'black'..... They evaporate energy constantly (the less massive they are, the faster they do it). SMBH are so massive, however, that the radiation is so intense that it sweeps the very centre of the galaxy clear of suns and debris.... the SMBH can not then grow significantly......

Additiona proofs involve the angular velocity of stars round the periphery of a galaxy... but they are a bit 'heavy' for me.....


http://www.sciam.com/2000/1000issue/1000scicit3.html

Scientif american link above had some bits on it.... There are some tremendus articles in this mag, if you dont subscribe.... New Scientist is excellent too, BTW....

[The PIT]

Does anyone know how a black hole got in my Wallet??

[Sasq]

It appeared sometime around when you started drinking and then started to increase in strength about the time you were able to afford more computer parts

Or you got married

Dan

[Jammrock]

RedRed,

Indirectly...yes I know several have been observed, but they are all indirect and the proofs for them are still theoretical and arguable, or Hawkins would finally have his Noble prize.

Sasq,

Well said. One of the many definitions of religion (accoding to ye olde Meriam Webster Dictionary), "a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith." So in essence science could be considered your religion and the electron your god! All hail the mighty electron!

Jammrock

[The PIT]

Sasq I think you've got it bang on there if I may say so.

As for Marriage I haven't found a Women daft enougth to have me. Must be my AfterShave.

[Joel]

This answers most of my questions.

http://www.washtimes.com/national/20011106-73789.htm

When I see other religious faiths having as many rights in Islamic countries as Muslims have in the US then and only then will I believe Islam is about 'peace'.

Joel

[The PIT]

Well Islamic awareness week here has got off to a flying start.
This is copied from teletext.

BISHOP SEEKS RELIGIOUS REASSURANCES
The Bishop of Bradford has been meeting
the City's Moslem leaders this evening.

The Rt Rev David Smith said he wanted
to make sure relations between
religious groups were as strong as ever
after an attack on a church.

Youths tried to set fire to St Philip's
in Girlington. The vicar, Rev Tony
Tooby, was subjected to racial taunts.

The Bishop has condemned the attack in
which Rev Tooby was also pelted with
stones by the youths who had broken in
to the church yesterday evening.

This was in the news after Duncan Smith was saying that he agrees with the new laws against religous hatred against Muslims. How about a law that says no tolerance against any hate against any religon.

[efty]

Hello again

Why can't we all believe in Santa and leave happyly ever after?

[The PIT]

Too easy thats why.

No I've had the misfortune of listening to another load of anti American drivel at work with some pitaful comments. As I write theres "minor" rioting going on in another town.

Now wheres that spaceship so I can get off this planet.

[Jammrock]

I'm prepping the fuel for my deep space exploration vessel right now. I'm get'n while the gett'ns good.

Jammrock

[RedRed]

Does anyone know how a black hole got in my Wallet??

When you popped the wallet into your back pocket, the BH was probably pulled out of orbit from Uranus!!!!





RedRed