Joel's Islam questions answered

[Gurm]

Here's a good one for you.

This week's Mallard Fillmore (a comic in the USA) has a great commentary piece on terrorism.

The tag line reads:

"How nature handles the 'Moral-Equivalence' problem:"

And the picture shows two birds flying away scared, whilst another sits on the tongue of a crocodile saying "... and maybe we did something to PROVOKE the crocodile... for instance, perhaps in HIS culture..."

For me, that says it all.

- Gurm

[KvHagedorn]

This was in the news after Duncan Smith was saying that he agrees with the new laws against religous hatred against Muslims. How about a law that says no tolerance against any hate against any religon.

How about a law that says "This is OUR f***ing country. Act like proper guests and step damned f***ing lightly or get out."

The stupidity.. The spinelessness.. The outright betrayal of their own..

It's enough to make me wanna puke.

[The PIT]

RedRed I'll ignore you comment again.

Although not reported in the national press another church was set on fire and the vicar attacked again in Bradford and further rioting in Leeds and Halifax. I've got that from the Yorkshire post.

[The PIT]

You may have to save this image to view it but it's a tale of someone trying to go to a firework display and being racially attacked.

As been pointed out to me by KvH the article is fairly ambigous but the author of the article is very english I do assure you.

[matrox_anger_me]

Originally posted by KvHagedorn
Remember the little experiment some of our teachers had us do? They would give a story to one person and have them repeat it. After several repeatings the current story had almost no semblance to the original. Imagine doing this over 200 years in every direction from Mecca before some Caliph had a definitive version written down.

not true. right after his death, one of his relatives, ali, which became ruler of their tribe, or whatever it was, collected all the things he had said, from the people that had written it down, and created a perfect copy of what the phrophet had originally said. the difference between the bible and the koran is, the bible is all based on word of mouth, while the koran, which came at a time of higher education, and writing, was recorded exactly as was said by the phrophet from god. both very good religions, but unfortunately, the bible has been twisted around a lot, to suit the peoples needs, more than to meet the demand of god. Anyone who studies islam, will realise, no matter what their present religion, all their rules will be in islam, and more. from the beginning of time, god sent several phrophets. with each one he sent, he upgraded the demands and rules of the religion, so that the people could adapt to them. unfortunately, after thousands of phrophets, the last 3 didn't go so well. the jews wouldn't accept christianiy when it came to suceed it, and the christians didn't go to islam when it came. that is where the major religions split up. at the moment, whenever you say "islam", the first thing that comes to mind is, "arab". right? of course, but that is wrong. islam is the fastest growing religion in the world. and here's something that might surprise you, it is also the fastes growing religion in the United States. Many of whome are not arabs. Countries like Turkey, China, Iran, America (mostly the blacks, during the time of malcom x, god rest his soul), and many other non-arab countries. Islam is something people turn to when they are in a state of suffering. when they arn't enjoying life, they start to realize that there are so many more important things in life. god. while in the richest countries, you will find christianity, because it is a religion with very few guidlines and restrictions, therefore, allowing the person to easily enjoy themselves, without any thought about god. islam itself, means submission to god. where you live your life, to please god, and find a way into heaven. though all religions of god are accepted by him, and if you truly follow your religion, as long as it is a true religion of god, you will go to heaven. but, if you are that dedicated to god, you will realize that there is an alternative, to become even more close to god, and that is when people go towards islam. one of the greatest religions.

and about the person that said something about " fight the non believers", yes, this would be true, at that time, people were naive. and this was referring to the people that worshipped idles, such as clay statues, and other things. so I could see how that was said. and not neccessary fight to kill. fight and force to the religion. or, fight what they say about you and your religion, because islam didn't always have that many supporters. if anyone has any questions about the koran and islam, i will most likely be able to answer them. also, i don't take directly what the koran says, i do new age islam. because some rules of the koran applied only to the time period of 1300 years ago. and is completey different now.

if anyone has any questions, just ask. i will try to get on here, and answer your questions.

[matrox_anger_me]

Originally posted by The PIT
You may have to save this image to view it but it's a tale of someone trying to go to a firework display and being racially attacked.

As been pointed out to me by KvH the article is fairly ambigous but the author of the article is very english I do assure you.

despite what many people think about bin laden, if you look at his reasons for hating and attacking america, are VERY valid. what he does in afghanistan, is a disgrace to islam. in the koran, it clearly states that women and men are equal, yet in afghanistan, they abuse women, and take away their rights.
now, this next part, unless you are very open minded, you will disagree with me, and hate me. but i must say it.

america is supporting israel, which is killing so many palestinians. the palestinian hamas and jihad are valid ones, which are working to get their country back. israel attacks refugee camps, and civial houses. the united states has been supporting them for the past 52 years. here's something that probably none of you knew. the unites states, is giving to israel, everyday, $10,000,000 USD. EVERY *** **** DAY. to buy planes, and choopers, to kill the palestinians. bill clinton launches attacks on iraq, to get attention of his sex scandal. american forces (non-islamic) are occupying the islamic capital of the world. something that no one likes. they ruined iran, putting a shah in place, and forcing him to give the free gasoline. making iraq go to war with iran. crippling both our countries. and so many other dispicable acts. that is why i am surprise when i see on tv: "i don't know why they would want to attack us". if i was bin laden, i would have gone for more military sources, or, taken out a nuclear power plant, or something with a minimum of civilian casualties, but the fact of matter is, america had to be attacked and taught a lesson, how it was done, was not right though.

please make any non-hatred comments and ask any questions you would like.

[Gurm]

Matrox_anger_me:

I'm going to say this POLITELY, but only once.

You're confused. I realize that dabbling in Islam for so long with so little literacy has left your brain in a disoriented state, but PLEASE attempt to get your facts straight before you argue with us. You will find that MURCers are some of the most intelligent people on the Internet, and yet rather than read the rest of this discussion - which would show that we all have a much firmer grasp on the origins and meanings of Islam than you do - you simply regurgitate the moderate Islamic rantings that you yourself have come to accept.

We don't accept them. And as a Jew, I find your remarks about Israel to be offensive in addition to unfounded and confused. Palestinians aren't "trying to get their country back". In fact, until 1975 the word "Palestine" was not a commonly accepted term. Mr. Arafat is a terrorist. He always has been. The Palestinian groups that claim to be attempting to liberate their country have a single agenda - the destruction of the Jews.

Sorry, pal - the UN gave the country to Israel. If you want it back now, you'll have to fight for it... OH, WAIT! You did fight for it! Three times! And what happened every time? WITHOUT AMERICAN AID? We kicked the sorry asses of the combined Arab nations back into the stone age. And then we took MORE land. And now you want it back? Too F-ing bad. American hasn't given Texas and Nevada back to Mexico. To suggest that we do so is preposterous. In a war, to the victor go the spoils. You declared war on Israel, so you lost land. Cope. It's over. It's done. The fact that the Israelis have been willing to negotiate at all is a credit to their good nature. But they are under NO obligation to politely give back the lands that they WON (not "stole") in a fair and square war.

Now please, go check your facts. Get them from real history books, not whatever passes for history in whatever part of the world you're from. When you know what REALLY happened, and you've ACTUALLY READ all the religious texts you claim to understand, come back and talk to us. Until then, go away.

[efty]

FAIR and square war??

Gurm sorry to disagree with you,
but as a principle I do not accept your arguement. I realize that jews have a long history in the region but that does not give them the right to go an displace ppl that have lived there for hundred of years. The fact is that Israel has an occupying force in land which it has no majority in the population. Israel is altering the demographic status in the region by building setlements in the occupied areas and putting in immigrant jews. I am sorry but this exact behavior is going on in my country by Turkey and I do not consider this to be right. The fact is that israel is violating the human rights of the people leaving in that area. I am not supporting terrorist acts, what I understand is the need of the palestinians for freedomn. Maybe the palestinian state/nationality came to be after 1975 as you state, but that does not change the fact that Israel is an occupying force and is suppressing the rights of the ppl living there.

[GT98]

Originally posted by Gurm
Matrox_anger_me:

Sorry, pal - the UN gave the country to Israel. If you want it back now, you'll have to fight for it... OH, WAIT! You did fight for it! Three times! And what happened every time? WITHOUT AMERICAN AID?

hey Gurm,

just wanted to point out one thing here..how do you define American Aid? Last time I checked..in the '67 war and '73 War Israel was using American MBTs to fight the Arabs etc. I've even seen photos of American vechicles getting flown into Israel during/after the '73 War.

[RedRed]

Gurm
Dont believe the hype....

Israel has been substanially supported by the US since its inception. Its weapons industry is based on copy of US tech. Its Missile systems are based on US tech.

It has always been percieved as an extension of US influence in the Middle East.

[Dr Mordrid]

My 2 cents on Arafat;

He's both a terrorist and an opportunist who takes personal advantage of the contintinuing turmoil and the resulting pain and suffering of his own people. What do I mean by that?

Simply put; there is a lot of money to be made by keeping his people in poverty and exploiting their anger, and he's taking full advantage of it.

The fact is that there is a huge amount of money being funneled into the Palestinian Authority, mainly by the US, the UN and the EC as well as those Arab nations who would rather the Palestinians settle anywhere but their back yards.

Public domain information shows that much of this influx of resources gets funneled directly into Mr. Arafat's personal bank accounts in Paris, France. This also happens to be where Mrs. Arafat and his children live, not in the PA's "homeland".

Uppance: peace would hit him in the wallet, therefore there is no peace and all the people of the region suffer. He, therefore, has no more principles than the character Hans Grueber did in "Die Hard". Terrorism is just a means to the end of keeping his financial pipeline intact.

Dr. Mordrid

[The PIT]

Sorry I'm missing the point here.

What justification is there for killing over 3000 people from 80 countries. I can't see one.
You should also read up a bit on Bin Laden and you'll quickly see he's nothing more than another Hitler who wants to make a master race. If you bother to look you'll find enougth information.
Do you really believe any society that he creates will be any less corrupt than the ones he blames on America. If you do you're really niave.
Quoting Bin Laden himself he says that theres been trouble along time between his tribe and the Jews and war is cannot be avoided. Right now although not declared they are at war.
Have you noticed that if theres any chance of peace sucide bombers suddenly go and start doing attacks. These people don't want peace they lose power they lose control. When Israel and Palastine were the closest for centurys who was busy trying to destroy it. Bin Laden.
The cycle of violence needs to be closed keeping it open is in Laden interest and any other terrorist or terrorist group.
You seem to forget that the Afghanstan Poeple were pleased to see the taliban go. They hated the interferance from, wait for it Pakistan (Death to Pakistan remember the shouts) and saudis. The taliban suppressed there people.
Also how can you justify people being harrassed becuase they're white/indian/west indian and non muslim. Thats racistism and is just as evil as the national front or combat 18. Neither is right in the modern world.

[matrox_anger_me]

Originally posted by Gurm


We don't accept them. And as a Jew, I find your remarks about Israel to be offensive in addition to unfounded and confused. Palestinians aren't "trying to get their country back". In fact, until 1975 the word "Palestine" was not a commonly accepted term. Mr. Arafat is a terrorist. He always has been. The Palestinian groups that claim to be attempting to liberate their country have a single agenda - the destruction of the Jews.

as a jew, eh? so you are trying to pick a fight? i say **** israel. okay? when i saw on tv, when the president of israel saying that the attack on the towers was the fault of all muslims, how do you think i felt? huh? now **** off, i don't have time for your ********. and bud, i know more about what is right, than you know about yourself!

[matrox_anger_me]

Originally posted by Dr Mordrid
My 2 cents on Arafat;

He's both a terrorist and an opportunist who takes personal advantage of the contintinuing turmoil and the resulting pain and suffering of his own people. What do I mean by that?

Simply put; there is a lot of money to be made by keeping his people in poverty and exploiting their anger, and he's taking full advantage of it.

The fact is that there is a huge amount of money being funneled into the Palestinian Authority, mainly by the US, the UN and the EC as well as those Arab nations who would rather the Palestinians settle anywhere but their back yards.

Public domain information shows that much of this influx of resources gets funneled directly into Mr. Arafat's personal bank accounts in Paris, France. This also happens to be where Mrs. Arafat and his children live, not in the PA's "homeland".

Uppance: peace would hit him in the wallet, therefore there is no peace and all the people of the region suffer. He, therefore, has no more principles than the character Hans Grueber did in "Die Hard". Terrorism is just a means to the end of keeping his financial pipeline intact.

Dr. Mordrid

yes, arafat is an *******. he is not on the side of his own people. he so often killed his own people that tried to fight for their freedom. that's why he's losing power now.

and about a reason for the death of the 1000's of americans that died, nothing. i said there was no good reason for it. america needed to be attacked, yes, but not a civilian spot. that was wrong. just like i states in my previous post.

[matrox_anger_me]

Originally posted by The PIT
Sorry I'm missing the point here.

What justification is there for killing over 3000 people from 80 countries. I can't see one.
You should also read up a bit on Bin Laden and you'll quickly see he's nothing more than another Hitler who wants to make a master race. If you bother to look you'll find enougth information.
Do you really believe any society that he creates will be any less corrupt than the ones he blames on America. If you do you're really niave.
Quoting Bin Laden himself he says that theres been trouble along time between his tribe and the Jews and war is cannot be avoided. Right now although not declared they are at war.
Have you noticed that if theres any chance of peace sucide bombers suddenly go and start doing attacks. These people don't want peace they lose power they lose control. When Israel and Palastine were the closest for centurys who was busy trying to destroy it. Bin Laden.
The cycle of violence needs to be closed keeping it open is in Laden interest and any other terrorist or terrorist group.
You seem to forget that the Afghanstan Poeple were pleased to see the taliban go. They hated the interferance from, wait for it Pakistan (Death to Pakistan remember the shouts) and saudis. The taliban suppressed there people.
Also how can you justify people being harrassed becuase they're white/indian/west indian and non muslim. Thats racistism and is just as evil as the national front or combat 18. Neither is right in the modern world.

yes, i agree with just about everything you say. did anywhere in my post did i say i was against anything you just said? also, to our jewish friend, i'm not a palestinian. if i was, and heard you saying those things you just said, you'd already be dead. arafat is a terrorist. to his own country. bin laden, is a ****** that messed up the lives of millions of people in afghanistan. though i do NOT support him, i do believe that america needed to be taught a lesson, that it can't feel to secure, just attacking everyone, and thinking nothing will happen to them because they're far away. though, i do NOT agree with the killings of the innoccent people. many of the people in the building wre against the U.S's support of israel, and many WHERE muslims. so, it wasn't well done. a good thing to do would have been to take the building down at night, when it was empty, and also, preferrably, at night, hitting government buildings, like the senate, and the pentagon. to take them out, and not have many civilian casualties. so, basically, attack needed, but not at ALL done properly. not at ALL. when you think about it, the states does support civilian attacks. like the 100's they are killing in afghanistan just to get one person. bin laden. but we should not, and no one that is against them, should not follow their bad example.

feel free to continue to ask questions if you really want to learn something. if you want to be an idiot and make racist and ignorant comments like our jewish friend there, please post it in a new thread, where i will not read it.