They are going to cause more trouble than they are worth.

[Dr Mordrid]

They have 'em, they just aren't always what Westerners would consider rank insignia.

To a hard-core Taliban what we would consider a military rank or insignia cannot be used because they are typically pictorial. To them this violates the commandment against graven images.

Instead they prefer to use something of a non-graven nature. One of the most common insignia they carry is a colored cloth, card or patch.

The most common of these, likely for identifying lower ranks, is colored yellow.

Dr. Mordrid

[cjolley]

Originally posted by RedRed

Or it meant that they were fighting with the Talibhan.....
RedRed

If they joined the war after it started, I don't understand the distinction you are trying to make.
They fought on the side of the terrorists and are from the West.
They, especially, might have knowledge of on-going terrorist plots in the west.
chuck

[KvHagedorn]

Scientific evidence indicates that at the stage of pregnancy at which abortions in Canada are customarily performed, the embryo or fetus has no awareness (including no awareness of pain). Sometime after 20 weeks' gestation, the fetus develops cognitive awareness or "brain life".

This was not the issue. If an abortion is performed in the first trimester, you are probably not murdering a cognitive human being. This is why abortion is such a touchy issue. Where does one become human? If one is religious, one can even cite God's anger with Onan for masturbating and "spilling his seed on the ground" as a sin. Once conception takes place and the embryo is healthy, you are far closer to creating a new human life. If you intentionally destroy it, you may be committing murder. This is a gray area which not everyone would agree with.

What I think could be universally agreed upon is that when a fetus is more than 5 months old and starts kicking around, the mother knows there is another human being growing inside her. There are abortions which take place after this though, and it is cold blooded murder plain and simple. This is where, if I were asked, I would make abortion the same thing as murder, punishable in a likewise fashion. When a baby has grown to this stage, the mother has implicitly assumed responsibility for that child, and her "right to choose" has stopped, in my opinion. The gruesome procedure I linked to is still performed legally in the US, having failed to be outlawed because of the twisted feminism which ruled the white house at the time.

[Wombat]

If they joined the war after it started, I don't understand the distinction you are trying to make.
They fought on the side of the terrorists and are from the West.

What war? There is no war. At least, we never declared one. I don't know how we expect to tow this line of calling it a war when it's convenient to us, but denying that it's a war when the rules of war would have been to our disadvantage.

Either these guys are POWs in our war against terrorism (read: Afghanistan), or we invaded a sovereign country and took people captive as we saw fit.

[RedRed]

OK Mordrid, my friend.....
I do know what a redneck is, I know what the KKK is, and I know of its origins, thankyou. it does not get away from my point, (and you know it!) but as you want to ignore it, fine...

while the Klan may well be offensive, in this country you have the right to be offensive so we don't outlaw organizations or make association with them illegal. We only outlaw illegal activities.

As I said, if the KKK had a crime committed in ITS NAME, would that give the state a right to execution of all members? OF COURSE NOT! IF KKK members were responsible for the Oklahoma bombing (AND I AM NOT SAYING THEY WERE, I said IF, hypothetically!!!) would that give the STATE the right to assissinate ALL members? OF COURSE NOT! And that is my point! The US has no more right to kill all members of the Talibhan OR Al queda without TRIAL, ESPECIALLY if they are nationals of YOUR ALLIES, Saudi, Britian France or Australia.

As I mentionsed earlier, the Aussie government has already asked for their national to be extradited. (but I havent heard anything more)

As for the US being "bigger and better" than the terrorists...why? This is war my friend, which is exercised by different rules than those used in normal discourse.

If its war, my friend, they are POW's, no question, especially if they are Talibhan, rather than Al Quaeda. The UN commissioner on human rights has bloody said so! They meet ALL the established critera ofr POW's, under the Geneva convention, according to her.

In a war you follow the rules of war, one of which is that non-uniformed and non-ranked combatants DO NOT have to be given the status of POW. They can be tried by a military tribunal (done many times in the past), imprisoned or executed as spies.

This cannot be done to a POW, which is exactly why they should not be given that privelidged status. In point of fact if they were given POW status they would have to be released after the end of the conflict.

Balls, and balls for 2 reasons
1 POW status protect you from normal rules only on the battlefield, and only under strict parameters (shooting a peasent walking along is still murder, looting is still looting). Anyone can be held and tried after being a POW, or even while still being held as a POW. What where the bloody Nurenburg Trials? Justice was SEEN by the WORLD to be done.

2 The american govt has declared war on TERRORISM, not just Al'queda. the prisoners could be held until long after revenge has been carried out in Somallia and anywhere else the US wanted to get involved.

That shoe lighting is a load of cack anyway... the man was clearly insane.... You need an ELECTRICAL charge to detonate semtex.... you could cook the bloody stuff! You cant set it off with a fuse, it wasnt Dynamite.... there is rubbish that is about....


KV

The gruesome procedure I linked to is still performed legally in the US, having failed to be outlawed because of the twisted feminism which ruled the white house at the time.

I can assure you that it is not the way it is carried out in West Europe.... Legal abortions can only be carried out up to 26 weeks in the UK (I think), and I can assure you that that method is NOT the method I have ever seen (I HAVE seen it in some anti abortion literature) It is true that normally about week 20, a feotus will try to escape its doom, and is sensitive to pain. The head is normally crushed first, or injected with hypertonic saline (now that COULD hurt) in UK abortions to kill the feotus as quickly as possible. At 26 weeks, a feotus could live for some time (but it would be a terrible existance outside the womb). I am aginst abortion, personally, but I do feel that tht a woman should have a reasonable length of time to decide to carry. I do accept your propisition about the 25-26 weeks. the mother should have decided what she is doing by that time. Where radical abnormality or congenital defect is subsequently discovered, perhaps, at the mothers consent, but that would be the ONLY case. Are you sure that this is NOT also the case for abortion in the States?

Its a pity that these two topics are in the same thread.....


RedRed

[RedRed]

wombat, we have been here before....

What war? There is no war. At least, we never declared one. I don't know how we expect to tow this line of calling it a war when it's convenient to us, but denying that it's a war when the rules of war would have been to our disadvantage.

Either these guys are POWs in our war against terrorism (read: Afghanistan), or we invaded a sovereign country and took people captive as we saw fit.

I agree with you.... George II called it a war last night, but no articles have been posted. These people are POW's. The fact that they are not being treated under the terms of the Geneva convention is WRONG. Executing them without due process now is wrong. Even Saddam, when he captured the airmen during the Iraq war broadly observed the convention. What way will you expect enemies to treat US captive in the future? Do you think this will 'teach them a lesson'? Oh I dont think so. It is being done so salve the american peoples thirst for retribution.

RedRed

[RedRed]

Mordrid

The most common of these, likely for identifying lower ranks, is colored yellow.

Actually, a man wearing a peice of yellow card or cloth normally signifies a death and mourning of a close relative in Afghanistan....

There will be a LOT of people wearing that!

RedRed

[Wombat]

That shoe lighting is a load of cack anyway... the man was clearly insane.... You need an ELECTRICAL charge to detonate semtex.... you could cook the bloody stuff! You cant set it off with a fuse, it wasnt Dynamite.... there is rubbish that is about....

It takes an electrical charge, IF the semtex is supposed to be the first thing to go. But, the shoe-bomb had some first-stage explosive, which had to be ignited, but would be all the accelerant the semtex would need to get going.

In hindsight, it's the smarter way to do it, considering his situation. An electronic setup in the shoes would have been much more likely to be detected at the security gate. OTOH, you're not going to get busted for a lighter.

[Wombat]

Found <A HREF="http://writ.news.findlaw.com/dorf/20020123.html">this</A> online.

[RedRed]

WOMBAT:

Actually electric is still the way to go....

you build your bomb with an electric starter, 100V or whatever the lighting system for the plane uses (details should be available online)

You go to the toilet and plug your bomb into the lighting system of the plane..... Boom

You are still carrying your plastic, but it isnt a crime to carry a bit of wire....

If he wasnt insane, why didnt he go to the toilet to set the bomb off anyway?

Mr Dorfs article is clearly a bit weak....
Culturally, if formal uniforms are not worn, they arent.
You cant recognise anyone from 30000 feet in a b52.
It is normal parctice to hide weapons among populations during wartime. The british did it in wwII, it has ALWAYS happened.
I dont have time to respond to everything here at the mo... but you see where I am comming from.

On another note, the Aussies have asked again for their citizen to be returned, or at least to be treated as the US citizen has been (trial, representation & all). A spokeswoman was on the box this morning.


RedRed

[mdhome]

Originally posted by RedRed

On another note, the Aussies have asked again for their citizen to be returned, or at least to be treated as the US citizen has been (trial, representation & all).
RedRed

Red,
I'm just curious. Are the Americans treating their own citizen differently from the rest of the Taliban? If so does anyone know why?


regards MD

[The PIT]

This bit was interesting

At the end of a war between conventional foes, it is expected that repatriated fighters will resume their civilian lives. Individual veterans might continue to harbor ill will towards their former enemies, but for the most part, peace between nations tamps down such feelings.

But there is good reason to worry that Taliban and especially al Qaeda fighters will not so readily have a change of heart. Members of al Qaeda do not act out of patriotic duty to obey the commands of a military leader, but out of an ideology that instructs them to attack and kill American civilians as a means of entering the kingdom of heaven. It is doubtful that any formal cessation of hostilities would lead them to abandon what they regard as a jihad.

Perhaps Genava convetions are now slightly dated.

[RedRed]

MdHome...

Yup, of course they are!

The US is prosecuting the American citizen through the regular civil courts. He is charged with something like 'conspiring to kill US citizens'

He has access to a lawyer, and is being tried in a state WITHOUT the death penalty.


Pit
Perhaps the GC is dated. However, it makes no difference. it is what we have got NOW. The point is that is is reasonably right. It might need added to to accout for combat in the third world (with poorly dressed soildiers!) but that dos NOT make it a less valid agreement. The fact that most of the countries of the world signed up to it is even more amazing, and reenforces its validity.

But there is good reason to worry that Taliban and especially al Qaeda fighters will not so readily have a change of heart. Members of al Qaeda do not act out of patriotic duty to obey the commands of a military leader, but out of an ideology that instructs them to attack and kill American civilians

the weakness of this argument is as follows: Replace Taliban and al Qaeda with nazi and replace American with Jewish. If that argument was valid, every member of the Waffen SS would still be behind bars.

[cjolley]

Red,
You don't really think that the al-Qaeda members we have captured will just go home to their shops, like the Germans did, do you?
We have an absolute right to defend ourselves and to prevent further attacks.
All the gab, gab, gab anyone can come up with is not going to stop us from exercising that right.
chuck

PS The fact that some of them are Taiban, does not mean they are not also al-Qaeda.

[Wombat]

If he wasnt insane, why didnt he go to the toilet to set the bomb off anyway?

There's a smoke detector directly overhead in the bathroom. Also, the bathroom might help contain the blast.

Also, you couldn't have a good electrical system without wire, and that wire would be detected.

He has access to a lawyer, and is being tried in a state WITHOUT the death penalty.

He's charged with federal crimes. It doesn't matter what state he's in. The federal government has the death penalty.