Car drivers maybe charged to use busy roads.

[RichL]

Originally posted by RedRed
the new proposals are suggested as a replacement for road tax in 10 years time.

Key words here are "suggested" and "in 10 years time". In other words, they'll keep charging us for road tax, AND charge us to drive in certain places (that we already paid road tax for) for the next ten years then say "Actually, we think we'll keep road tax and the congestion charges, plus heres another thing we thought of to tax you with...."

Excuse my cynicsysm, I own and drive a car.

The net cost would be, on average, the same. If you are driving along and your speed drops below a predetermined level (IE you are stuck in traffic) some GPRS system bill your credit card.

This way rural people (who cause very little polution) get hit, but the dreaded 'school run' gets clobbered....
RedRed
John J

Well apart from the fact it will encourage drivers not to bother slowing down, its a bad idea for the public and a moneyspinner for the government.
Road crash causes a ten mile tailback? £1 per car per hour, times 300 poor sods stuck in the jam, and all the Policemen too busy setting up speed cameras to deal with it.
Plus everytime someone panics and overbreaks, causing a sudden and inexplicable slowdown for a few minutes five miles down the road, everyone gets billed for it.
Of course, the next step will be the government claiming money from the car insurance companies for when their client has a road accident and holds up traffic. The insurance companies will up their rates, and the government charges tax on insurance dont they?

[RedRed]

I remember they talked about this years age. THe thinking was that if average speed droped below a given for a particular type of road (say 50MH on a motorway, 15 on a city street) then charges would be imposed.

I have no problem with this, PROVIDED the fixed rate taxes were to go, and that the criteria were not too strict.

Travel is the only service for which we pay for, but with inequality. Any tax should be at the point of consumption. I do about 15K mile a year, I expect to pay more than some pensioner in a hill farm, doing 2K a year. I dont want to pay for it through Petrol, as one of my cars is 28years old, and only does 20MPG. I only use that one for recreation, and would not expect it to get stuck in traffic (overheats when it does !)

Seriously, I do think that traffic does need a radical review, in terms of its management and congestion. I welcome ANY thoughts, no matter how crazy they seem upfront

RedRed

[The PIT]

Well once a upon a time there was place called Sheffield. Not many people used the car becuase public transport was cheap. Buses ran on time the bus routes didn't alter the bus stops didn't move and the buses ran freqantly and too late hours.
Suddenly this bright spark called Margerat decided it would be better for joe public if the buses were privatised so companies would compete against each other and provide a better service.
What happened well your regular bus suddenly went from every ten minutes to every half hour and hourly after six o'clock or stopped completly. Your bus stop moved for no reason or the bus you got on suddenly went to a different destination from the one it did yesterday. Bus fares suddenly shot up and yes you got more buses but they all ran at the same time and blocked each other off at bus stops. Also the buses were badly manitained with passengers choking on engine fumes and thick cloud of soot hung behind many buses as they drove along.
Joe public though bollocks to this and jumped in his car as it always was there on drive and always managed to go to his work place and didn't stop after six. So car useage rose in Sheffield by 50% and has continued rising since. Now that the council wants to knock down the central bus station and spread stops around the city centre Joe public has even less reason to catch a Bus.

[Gurm]

Am I the only one who is thoroughly amazed that you would bitch about the concept of a toll road?

Everywhere I go around here I have to pay. It's a pretty common concept in this part of the world. You get used to it.

- Gurm

[RedRed]

Gurm
Im with you on this one....

Pit
Im completely with you on the Margert Thatcher thing, however it is now history, so we need to fix it, not cry about it!

RedRed

[Wombat]

The weird thing is, the Brits already pay gasoline taxes out the ass, but they don't use them to fund the road infrastructure.

Also, it would cost you extra to sit stuck in traffic, highway or city. We don't have anything like that.

Nevermind that I have no intention of letting the government force me to install a tracking GPS system in my car.

[The PIT]

Could you do them for Human rights??

[RichL]

Gurm,
we already pay £155 a year road tax that is supposed to fund the road infrastructure and repairs, so yes I do object to a bloody toll road seeing as I've already paid for it!
We also pay through the nose for petrol and diesel thanks to taxes that make up something like 85% of the purchase price.
And we have to have auto-insurance by law, which isnt such a bad idea really, except the insurance companies screw us over and the government charges a few % Insurance Policy tax.

And another thing : the government charged a premium on Leaded Petrol as it was enviromentally unfriendly. Now all the lead has been removed from petrol and we have Lead-Replacement stuff, how come they still charge a premium?
And Diesel! Diesel cars are more efficient, longer lasting and less polluting, but they charge a premium on that to.

Green policies my hairy bum, they're just out to make money from us.

[RedRed]

and what a fine bum it is!

RedRed

[RichL]

Damn! I thought I'd taken all those pictures down too!

[The PIT]

Nothing like creating new taxes. One of the ideas that this replaces the road tax which is alright if you don't use the car much. However if you have to commute it's just another tax on being employed.
How about encouraging companies to run there own minibuses?

[RedRed]

Pit
They currrently are!

17% discount on pruchase (over cars)

Tax on petrol reduced

Tax on personal allowances (if you have a company car), removed.

Road tax (per seat) - slashed.

Its our attitude to the car has to change. It needs to be paid for... running cars on the road should be paid for. £150 a rear wouldnt cover a fraction of the costs of maintaining a road system. Something needs to be done to reduce the growth of road useage, before we are all strangled in ashphalt.

I'm not some 'earth bunny', looking for an ecological nirvana, I think we need not just to make alternative modes of transport moreattractive, but to make the car less attractive. Public transport can never compete with the flexibility, comfort or feeling of control that the car can give you. It has to score some other way. Cheaper than the car is one way.

RedRed

[RedRed]

Sorry Pit, but the point is, I think, that those who use the roads a lot , and contribute to gridlock etc should pay more for the pleasure (even if it is to commute), those who dont cause much of a problem on the road, shoul pay less. think of a better way to do it, and that would be great.

Again, I think that a tax paid at the point of use is fair enough (VAT, properly applied is fairer than Income Tax), but this is NOT as well as, rather it is INSTEAD of. (I think they could reduce the tax on petrol as well, to encourace the process.


RedRed

[RichL]

Originally posted by RedRed
I'm not some 'earth bunny', looking for an ecological nirvana, I think we need not just to make alternative modes of transport moreattractive, but to make the car less attractive. Public transport can never compete with the flexibility, comfort or feeling of control that the car can give you. It has to score some other way. Cheaper than the car is one way.
RedRed

I agree. We do have a huge amount of tarmac spanning the countryside, and theres probably a huge amount of traffic that isnt really neccesary. In my case, I live within a 10 minute walk of a rail station and my office is 2 minutes away from another. Unfortunately they're on different lines and I'd have to take a 20 mile round trip to get from one to the other, although there is a crossover it only happens on Saturdays.
So I own two cars and travel 18 miles each way to work. The second car is my weekend plaything and backup incase the 1st breaks (which it has).

My 'wishlist' for traffic reduction would be :

- Supervised and Policed school busses to reduce the morning/evening school run.
- Smaller trains that ran more frequently and could run a more diverse route.
- Government incentives to encourage companies to employ locally and reduce long distance commuters.
- A more efficient Police road accident unit and breakdown response to clear the roads of minor accidents faster.
- A more effective and up to date traffic reporting system via radio, mainly so you know when a blockage is cleared and dont take a detour for nothing.

[spoogenet]

I think taxing by time on the road is an unfair practice. Life isn't fair, yadda yadda yadda, but maybe there's a better way to do it.

I think taxing road use is fair, those who use the roads more should pay more to use them. Taxing by distance, however, would be more fair than taxing by time. Similar to the way telecoms set up their rates, one could establish peak times and charge more for distances travelled during peak hours. It could be free or near-free to travel at very late night hours when nobody's on the road, cost a lot during rush hour, and have a medium rate for mid-day travelling.

With this you would be taxing workers more, however the government could simultaneously offer tax incentives to businesses that encourage alternate means of transportation for their employees. Establishing viable carpooling systems, for instance, would be a good way to reduce the cost per person. Companies could offer kickbacks of some sort for employees who carpool, which could also help reduce parking problems (not sure if you have issues with it, but many places do). Train passes, when available, could help too.

If the government wants to pass itself off as trying to help the environment, I think they should give tax assistance to purchasers of high fuel-economy vehicles, such as hybrids. In the US the Honda Insight costs nearly $18k....that's a lot for a 2-seater with no real trunk. It's only good as a commuter car, but too expensive for the average person to own in addition to a more practical vehicle. If it cost, say, $10-12k.....I'd buy one and drive it to work everyday.

But, I think we've already established it's a 'get rich quick' scheme rather than anything else.

b