What is your view on the return of the Parthenon Marbles?

[Joel]

but it is doubtful this will happen as the west has a bad habit of plundering and not repaying. I really doubt the texas will ever hand back any part of texas to mexico lol...

alas, but what is the expression...history is written by the victors...not exactly a great incubator for the truth.

It’s the insinuation of the two above statements and others like them that I am referring too. Of course in this situation I’m damned if I do, damned if I don’t. If I do anything then I’m accused of being biased, if I don’t do anything then I’m accused of not doing my job.

It's just that over the passed few months I have seen too many of these types of threads that start out innocently enough but then turns into a flame fest as soon as something is mentioned about the west. And I will admit that I have been drawn into a few of them myself. Well not again. That goes for both sides.

Joel

[dancray]

fair enough.

[RedRed]

ahhh hem.......

anyhoo, Gurm, back to the thread......

Not a 2000 year business plan. Perhaps a "look at the nice climate-controlled high-security building we're gonna put them in, see?" and not a "give 'em back so we can toss 'em in the closet".

NO, NO, NO...... they want to store them, make copies and put them back on the side of the acropolis.... its 70 feet up, and quite safe..... they had spent HUNDREDS of years outside.... Athens suffers from Acid rain (too much polution), but they would probably be best left there. (the rest of the marble seems to last OK) Do you HONESTLY believe that the British Museum has them all on display? no sir! about 5 percent! Most of them were disfigured beyond value when the Ottoman powderstore blew up.

And while the Brits may, in fact, have been interested in ... ahem ... "acquiring" these treasures, they certainly didn't just sell 'em off - they treasured them.

Actually, The British ARE the ones who blew the face (nose and beard!) of the Sphynx (with BLACK POWDER!!!!) in an archilogical experiment in the 1870's. The 'Archilogical' expidation of Capt Wellard (I think that was his name) hadnt found any fabled treasures.... so they tried to crack open the sphynx.... OOOOOPS! It was actually the French, under direction of Napoleon who orderd the clearing of the desert and the first 'modern' (in the last 900 YEARS!) repairs of the sphynx....

Wombat might know his mil tech.... I know my Ancient History

I also understand that RECENT (1800-present) history bears out the fact that many countries just sort of let things slide.

The reason for this, dear Gurm, has been that most of the countries (Palestine, Iraq, North Africa, Veitnam) with the interesting Artifacts were under British, French or Ottoman control during these times! When these places are left to manage temselves, most DO take care of their artifacts (except those Talibhan again!). The exception to this is when these countries either become annexed by another OR they slip into such decline that they are unable to afford it. When one talks about the timescales that these antiquities are around for, one cannot assume that any particular country will be in a position to 'own' them for ever.....

redred

[Wombat]

Actually, The British ARE the ones who blew the face (nose and beard!) of the Sphynx (with BLACK POWDER!!!!) in an archilogical experiment in the 1870's. The 'Archilogical' expidation of Capt Wellard (I think that was his name) hadnt found any fabled treasures.... so they tried to crack open the sphynx.... OOOOOPS! It was actually the French, under direction of Napoleon who orderd the clearing of the desert and the first 'modern' (in the last 900 YEARS!) repairs of the sphynx....

Then again, maybe not. Norden's drawing of the Sphinx shows it with neither nose nor beard, in 1755. Also....

Finally, an article by Ulrich Haarmann, "Regional Sentiment in Medieval Islamic Egypt," published in the University of London's Bulletin Of The School Of Oriental And African Studies (BSOAS), vol.43 (1980) p.55-66, states that according to Makrizi, Rashidi and other medieval Arab scholars, the face of the Sphinx was vandalized in 1378 A.D. by Mohammed Sa'im al-Dahr, a "fanatical sufi of the oldest and most highly respected sufi convent of Cairo." The nose and ears are mentioned specifically as having been damaged at this time.

Also, if you'd care to explain how the beard was blown off in the 19th century, while fragments of it were found beneath the centuries of sand, between the paws, I'd love to hear it.

My strengths are not what I know, but that which I realize I do not know, and decide to research.

[RedRed]

You are partially correct, wombat

Yes the beard was lost earlier - my error....

the initial disfigurement took place in the 15th C there the nose and ears were damaged.

however, the gross damage occoured in the 19th C

Please DONT jump to the wrong conclusions, However your research is clearly flawed/incomplete......
But Hey! I wont get a cheap 'dig' in on ya on this!


There was a myth that the sphinx was used as artillery practice by french troops, prior to invasion by the British, but this is untrue, spread to cover the damage done by the British

[RedRed]

with this one, a sketch done by David Roberts, January 17th 1839.

this is BEFORE the gross damage to the neck and face was done. The chip off the nose may have been done by a bunch of Sufis - the gross damage was done with powder.


you can clearly see that the nose and at least 1 ear is damaged, NOT, however, distroyed.... The beard is missing though, I was wrong there.


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It is getting a bit off topic

[Gurm]

Dude, that image looks JUST like the picture you posted above. I think this entire "black powder" thing is a convenient "suggested memory" of yours (see the Oliver North thread), much like Dogbert's sex life.

- Gurm

[Wombat]

I did a lot of looking around about the history of the Sphinx. Not <I>one</I> single site espoused your "Wellard" theory, and I couldn't find information on him, or a couple variations of the spelling. Now it's your job to provide references.

As for that drawing, it's hard to say how much of that is there. It was part of the artistic style of the 19th century illustrators to show things how they "should" look, rather than how they were. Notice that your picture still has the coloring on the eyes, which is highly unlikely. There's also a famous image from 1843 that shows the Sphinx with an intact nose, for another example.

[efty]

Originally posted by RichL

For instance, I visited Cyprus a couple of years ago. While there we were able to walk around some old Roman ruins at Paphos, including some ancient mosaic floors which were left open to the elements, with only a peice of string to discourage anyone from trampling all over it.

28 Years ago we had 200,000 people living in tents. We are working on it, but we did have other priorities and still do having in mind that 38% of Cyprus is under Turkish Occupation.

In 1960 Cyprus won its independence by the British. Who ravaged the country resulting in a significant percentage of cyprus' archeological heritage to reside now in the Metropolitan Museum.


By Gurm

I don't oppose the return of the marbles - IF y'all can take care of 'em. You've demonstrated a profound lack of that particular capability in the past.

Prove it. Do you think at all before responding??

[RedRed]

Dont believe that the victorian age and onward made the British ANY better than ANYONE else with antiquities. They WERE for the most part just raiders, paid by meuseums or private individuals.

Wombat and Gurm
You were asking for the references:

http://www.uwm.edu/~mrdunn/discovers/discovers.html

This is a link to a brief history of those who investigated Egypt. You will note that it was the French (and not the British) who established archiology in Egypt.

This reference does not include the detail of the 'excavations' of the sphinx by the british, (pages 26-> ) however it does detail several other examples of the vandalism the british comitted in the days of empire. I will try to get the references of the other later, when I can refer to my college texts)

its a long article, Sorry about that.
RedRed

[Joel]

At this point and time what does it really matter. From what I have been reading lately it is the environmental conditions that is doing the most damage now.

Plus IMO this thread has gotten off topic in an attempt to make the Brits look like a big bunch of meanies.

The orginal question was

What is your view on the return of the Parthenon Marbles?

so let's try to keep it there.

If you want to discuss the history of the Sphinx then please start another thread. But keep it civil and stop the blame game please.

Joel

[RedRed]

I know it went a bit off topic with the egypt thing.... Terribly sorry for attempting to defend a position....
I am sorry if i wasnt clear.... I wasnt trying to say that the British were a nasty lot ..... I was trying to say that as far as antiquities were concerned, they were as bad as EVERY OTHER empire in the past 4000 years , the Ottoman Turks, The French, the Spainish.....

Their track record in most other area was, however MUCH superior to that of previous modern history empires.... (IMHO)


I think that the marbles should be returned to Greece... Copies kept in the Museum..... Perhaps if Greece arranged to make and pay for the copies, with the marbles returned as they are ready.... wouldnt that be just dandy!

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