When.....

[KvHagedorn]

Originally posted by eftychios


Which dictators? Are you talking about Sadam who was a US foster child?? Are you talking about the King of Suidi arabia who is there with the support of the US? The US government has supported dictators that serve their interests throughout recent history. It does not matter if these dictators do not educate their people or care about their well being.

Alright, perhaps Joel should make this a sticky since it comes up about ten times a day.. During the cold war the US was forced to support dictators in many countries because they were the only alternative to communist revolutionaries. Other dictators were supported for the same reason we supported the odious Stalin in WW2.. a common enemy. The latter is how we got Saddam. Foreign policy is an extremely complicated matter and there is little room in it for idealism, so those of you who want to reiterate this strain about how awful we are to have supported dictators please think about this before you post.

[efty]

Is Musharaf an outcome of that policy? And don't tell me he is not a dictator.

[SpiralDragon]

no no no... you all have it so wrong..... joel; the key word in your post is the religious leaders.... they do not control the majority like most medias claim... and not all religious leaders claim that america is satan.... and many that do use it in the context of the US govt. not america as a whole..... many of the same people who shout anti american slogans love to go to McDonalds... love American movies and are facinated by American torists... this holds true with the majority of arabs... fundementalst are large in numbers but they are NOT the majority..

on the education thing... dictator or no dictator education is a problem, and something has to be done about it. in other words if israil would stop ataking the palestinians with wepons and bombard them with educational suport you would see the situation changing at an incredible rate.......

and as far as dictators are concerned ... forget the fact who put them there or why... they are there ... and countrary to popular belife the only people that can remove them are the people being opressed... but as long as they have a commen enemy that wont happen......

[GT98]

Originally posted by eftychios
Is Musharaf an outcome of that policy? And don't tell me he is not a dictator.

Nope he came to power though his own means (Military Coup) When 9/11 happened...Pakistain was right next door to Afghanstain and thus was a no brainer to ask if we could base troops out of their for actions in Afghanstain. I'm sure the Policy makers said...ok he's a quote dictactor unquote, but at the time it was more important to remove al quida and the talliban then it was to worry about what he did before. I'm sure that the US will apply pressure here and there to the country to have democratic elections etc etc in the future. Its unfornate but like KvHagedorn
stated before Foreign policy is a very complicated and can be ugly when you take a look back at it.

Its almost like asking a drug dealer for info on the guy who killed a family member...you do it so you can get job done, but you dont quite fell clean after its all said and done, but the job was done....

[Wombat]

Yeah, sure Joel, it's "all the religious leaders" out there. Okay. No blanket generalizations there. If you scratch the surface to look beyond the sensational journalism, you'll find plenty of imams that preach peace.

How about we judge American Christianity by the same standards? Hmm, all that's made the news lately are Jerry Falwell and Catholic abuse. Guess that sums up the situation here.

[KvHagedorn]

Originally posted by eftychios
Is Musharaf an outcome of that policy? And don't tell me he is not a dictator.

Mousharraf may be a dictator, but he is no Saddam or Stalin. There can be relatively benevolent dictators out there, and he is certainly preferable (not only to the US, but to the whole world) to a bunch of radical young madmen like the Taliban. Pakistan DOES have nukes, and God help us all if Mousharraf falls to the fanatics which have been so indoctrinated in his own country by Saudi money. This is why I've always said the real enemies are the Saudis. Their money and their own brand of radical Islam have been responsible for most of the anti-west hatred which has sprung up around the world, and as you liberals are fond of saying, we are just a trumped up enemy for the masses to hate which keeps them otherwise occupied while the rich keep them subjugated.

[efty]

Mousharraf may be a dictator, but he is no Saddam or Stalin.

I did not know there are two kinds of dictators!!

[KvHagedorn]

Alright.. would you rather live under dictator A who rules by law and does not randomly have you slaughtered to serve his own ego (someone like Mousharraf) or would you like to live under dictator B who has large sections of your country closed off by the army, removes all your food, and lets 7 million of you starve to death (someone like Stalin)? I'm afraid you are very confused if you equate a government that can be termed a dictatorship with tyrrany. It ain't necessarily so. A parliament can act more responsibly than a dictator or the other way around. The problem is twofold for dictators though.. they are faced with the temptation of absolute power (which is very difficult to handle) and they cannot pass the blame when things go wrong. People don't do well as Gods under any normal circumstances.

[Joel]

You know Spiral you are right not all of them do. Just a few.

Syria
A official Syrian Radio sermon was broadcast from Anas Ibn-Malik Mosque in Damascus : "O God, annihilate the Zionists and make them destroy themselves" the preacher urged via Damascus Syria Arab Republic Radio in Arabic, official station of the Syrian Government.

Shaykh Dr. Ziyad al-Din al-Ayyubi delivered the sermon. It was devoted to Arab and Islamic unity and prayed for the success of Bashar al Assad as he led the country. Dr. Ayyubi also prayed, "O God, help our people in Palestine and the Golan. O God, annihilate the Zionists and make them destroy themselves."

Palestinian Authority

Official Palestinian television broadcast a sermon live as it was delivered at Shaykh Ijlin Mosque in Gaza on July 19 2002 by Shaykh Ahmad Abd-al-Raziq. According to him, 'God has afflicted' the Palestinian people for listening to 'empty talk about peace' and not 'carrying on the jihad'.

"It is for this reason. . . that God has afflicted us with sedition and an enemy, who does not fear us, but sweeps our towns, kills our children, and imprisons our heroes." This would not have happened, he adds, "had we carried out God´s orders, especially jihad, and had Muslims carried out their God´s orders for jihad and not listened to this empty talk about peace. What peace is this when Al-Aqsa Mosque is being desecrated and curfew is being imposed on Muslim territories? The Muslim must carry out his God´s order." - Shaykh Ahmad Abd-al-Raziq, July 19, 2002


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Saudi Arabia
On July 19, Saudi TV1 broadcast a sermon in Arabic delivered by Shaykh Abd-al-Rahman al-Sudays. The sermon was delivered live from the holy mosque in Mecca. "O God, deal with the aggressor Jews and all aggressive infidels", prayed this immam, before concluding with a prayer to God to support Islam and Muslims, humble infidelity and infidels, destroy the enemies of religion, and make this and other Muslim countries safe and stable."

He prayed for the success of the king and his crown prince in their work for the well-being of the country and people. He prayed: "O God, support our brother mujahidin for your sake everywhere. O God, grant them victory in Palestine, Kashmir, and Chechnya. O God, deal with the aggressor Jews and all aggressive infidels. O God, deal with them for they are within your power."

One can argue, perhaps, that a sermon inciting violence against Israel, being delivered by a Palestinian cleric from within Israel might be more reflective of the political situation on the ground than of the spiritual condition of its listeners.

It is true that the Palestinians, backed by the Arab world, have a political axe to grind with Israel, but these are not political manifestos being delivered to the UN. These are sermons being offered -- all on the same day -- to the faithful of Islam.

Sermons delivered from the mosques located where Islam claims are the three holiest places in Islam, the grand mosques of Mecca, Medina and Jerusalem.

Joel

[Wombat]

I really believe that the pagans and the abortionists and the feminists and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People for the American Way, all of them who try to secularize America...I point the thing in their face and say you helped this happen."

Falwell, 9/13/01 Pat Robertson was there and "totally concurred."

[Gurm]

Hey Wombat,

You should learn to adopt my point of view - all high-profile religious "authorities" are inherently evil.

That includes:

- Jerry "Gay Teletubbie" Falwell
- Pat "Let's Cure Homosexuality with Prayer" Robertson
- Pope "Let's **** Small Boys" John Paul II

Let's just face it. Christianity ain't working. Islam, either. I like being Jewish - we just expect to be oppressed, and don't preach intolerance.

- Gurm

[Wombat]

http://www.satirewire.com/news/march02/chosen.shtml

[KvHagedorn]

Well.. all those Imams are using our society's general impiety and selfishness and de facto worship of material things as excuses to kill us. Not that they wouldn't find another excuse even if we all went to mass and prayed all day..

Independent of religious dicta though, our values pretty much suck. Materialism and selfishness are not good things however you might view them.

[KvHagedorn]

Originally posted by Gurm

Let's just face it. Christianity ain't working. Islam, either. I like being Jewish - we just expect to be oppressed, and don't preach intolerance.

- Gurm

Intolerance? Gurm, every religion which is an institutionalized majority preaches intolerance. Why do you think Jesus was up there dying on the Cross.. because the Rabbis were tolerant of him?

Every minority religion should expect to be repressed by this same token. Why? Because religion is a very ancient human mechanism to express unity of the tribe. When you practice a non-majority religion, you set yourself apart from the tribe. Do you think early Christians who were in the minority were not opressed? Ask Peter who died on a cross upside down or any of those eaten alive by lions for the pleasure of Rome.

[Dr Mordrid]

Sorry, but the church I belong to teaches tolerance bigtime. Sorry if a few others don't.

Dr. Mordrid