When.....

[Dogbert]

Spiral, eftychios etc.

I didn't claim all muslims want to destroy the world.

I DO CLAIM THAT:

Fractions want the destruction of all heretics including their own brothers (like in Algeria).
Those fractions are heavily armed with high authority religious people and with guns etc. Consider them armed with all forms of mental and physical weaponry.
Many muslims who oppose them can't really do much against those people so they'd rather delay the end, hoping it'll never come knocking their door.

The Palestinian street could be a good example for this. Over 80% poverty, many people blame Arafat for caring more for his war than for his people (he claimed all the palestinians martyrs for the cause, he said many times that he'll sacrifice the blood and souls of his people). Many admit that while the Intidfada was the right thing to do, the timing and execution were very wrong. Many hate the Hamas and oppose them and their ways too.
BUT: they're poor, hungy and defenceless against both the Palestinin authority and the Hamas. Every day there are people executed in the streets with no trial for being suspects of collaboration with Israel.
So in the end, those people have two possibilities - 1.play by the rules and try to stay alive, or 2. don't play by the rules and prepare for death (whether by being dragged to the street and being shot in the head or worse tortured to death in one of the many torture basements.)

About education, none of you have seen the children's text books. You haven't got the slightest idea how they're poisoning their minds at such a young age.
Just as an example, those books don't speak of Jerusalem (an old controversy) but they're already working on new ones - Jaffa, Haifa, Acco... Espcially Jaffa.
If parents would try to educate their children differently, they'll be condemned and expect death in any of the ways above.

I'm not talking about what the media tells me. I knew Palestinian Arabs. I worked with them (I wasn't managing them, I was a worker below them only cause I was younger and unprofessional) in construction and ate with them from the same plate. Weve talked anything from women to politics and it was quite educating for both sides. in their own words - They ate the shit of the Egyptians in Gaza for so many years. When the Israelis couldn't get rid of Gaza in the peace process with Egypt (interesting ha? Egypt wouldn't accept Gaza back with Sinai. They left their "brothers" a.k.a the "ticking bomb" to blow in Israel) Israel started to throw a few crumbs their way. One of them was some education which allowed a few to reach university. With that and some help from Arabs around the world (some freedom was another crumb) those who could sent their children to get higher education and open their own universities.
The 'bomb' was still ticking only the 'bomb' got smarter. Now they had lawyers and scolars. They knew how much they've been f%&ked all those years. They also knew what to demand, how and from whom (the current responsible country - Israel).
Since Israel had amuch softer hand on them compared with the Egyptians, and since there was no problem of attacking Jewish authority as opposed to attacking muslims, the 'bomb' went off.

Now for some food for thought:
1. Why from the beginning did the Egyptians (Gaza) and the Jordanians (west bank) treat their 'palestinian brothers' so badly ?

2. Why during the peace process with Egypt didn't Egypt accept the return of Gaza with Sinay ?

3. Why did Jordan give up their claim for the west bank ?

4. Are those teritories still considered 'conquered' after the countries from whom they were conquered gave up all claim for them ?

5. Back to the issue, this was just a tiny little example about a nation of a few millions. How different do you really think it is in Iraq etc. ? I can see just 1 HUGE difference - there aren't Israeli/Zionists/Jews/Americans directly above them to blame and attack. Oh really ?

[Joel]

Falwell, 9/13/01 Pat Robertson was there and "totally concurred."

Yeah and both of them later turned around and apologized for what they said because they realized how unpopular that kind of talk was. And even though, they were not telling people to go out and do everything they could to murder these people. They did not say that it was their duty to God to destroy these people. Plus the Majority viewed they as a couple of idiots and laughed in their faces.

Plus too over here a person has the freedom to change his religion if he wants too and to worship anyway he wishes just as long as he doesn't hurt someone else in the process. Not so in some Islamic countries.

Former Muslims Pay High Price For Christ

Few in the West seriously consider the price paid by some, especially Jews or Muslims, for claiming Jesus. Islamic converts face all kinds of dangers for having left Islam: ostracism from family members and friends, kidnappings and even death threats. According to Islamic law as practiced in countries such as Iran, Sudan, Pakistan and in northern regions of Nigeria, the penalty for changing one's religion is execution.

Joel

[GNEP]

I have some muslim friends here in the UK. They are decent, honest people (like me!) and just as liberal as I (athiest) am, and are in the majority as being "moderate". What really gets my goat is that muslims around the world are viewed as "one" by many in the West. This is simply not true. Just as my parents are Christian (one catholic, the other anglican), they certainly are not born-again, right-wing, or even marxist.

People are people are people. I do not beleive that anyone, no matter where they are from, is "evil" or should be branded as such just because they belong to a particular geographical/social/political/religious group.

Please please please separate the actions of a minority from the humanity of the majority.

gnep

[Dogbert]

Gnep,

The big problem is that sometimes there's a very powerfull and opressive minority who rules over a majority and taints them.
Many months ago there were talks about possible peace between Israel and Sirya/Lebanon. You should have read what the people in those countries said. They were eagerly waiting for Israeli tourists to come shopping there. They wanted to come visit Tel Aviv and the night clubs here. The were talking about non stop car traffic between countries and huge projects that'll glorify the ME as the pearl of the world.
Those talks failed, the ideas and optimism went away and the media in Sirya returned to the old tracks as dictated by the government.
While I agree that many siryans are good people who long for peace and prosperity, Sirya as a country ruled by an opressing minority is a great negative force in this world who's harboring and helping terrorist and extremist groups all over the world.

[Dogbert]

The media in a way is a mirror of the society. Sometimes the chicken comes first, and sometimes the egg... If you want to be certain, check the government...

The media can reflect and the media can dictate. In the end, it's a mirror.

[Joel]

I have some muslim friends here in the UK. They are decent, honest people (like me!) and just as liberal as I (athiest) am, and are in the majority as being "moderate".

That is very true in the UK as well as in the US. But it is a different story in the ME. Plus because the religion of Islam is so interwoven into their fabiric of society very few will speak out againist it.

Question: Where is the demostrations in the streets againist these extermist and their blood thristy actions againist innocent civilians? Where are the demostrations calling for peace with the Zionist and the "Great Satan" of the west?

Joel

[SpiralDragon]

Originally posted by GNEP
Please please please separate the actions of a minority from the humanity of the majority.

this is exactly what i have been trying to say but most here just dont want to listen.......

[SpiralDragon]

Originally posted by Dogbert
The media can reflect and the media can dictate. In the end, it's a mirror.

that sais more than you think......

[Dr Mordrid]

I think you'd be suprised how many Muslims I have as friends. I also think you'd be suprised how many of them agree with me re: the behavior of their religious leaders and their fellow Muslims.

The difference I see between the Christian and Muslim communities comes down to the behaviour of their clerics.

In the Christian community most clerics are highly critical of both sides in the middle east conflict and openly hammer the Falwell/Robertson types as soon as they open their holes. You should have heard our sermon Sunday, and ours is a conservative Lutheran parish.

In the Muslim community the vast majority of clerics are critical of only one side and clam up when other Muslim leaders encourage the likes of Huzbullah, Arafat, UBL etc. That cuts their credibility by about 95%

This might be because Islam is such a de-centralized religion with little defineable central authority as opposed to Christian denominations, but that still isn't an excuse for their inaction and seeming approval by silence.

Dr. Mordrid

[SpiralDragon]

Originally posted by Joel


That is very true in the UK as well as in the US. But it is a different story in the ME. Plus because the religion of Islam is so interwoven into their fabiric of society very few will speak out againist it.

absolutly NOT true.....

[SpiralDragon]

for once i agree with the Doc. but i would like to point out that atleast in lebanon there are many that are fed up with the clerics.....

[Dr Mordrid]

The problem is that while other Muslims may be fed up with them they aren't taking the next logical step: the open and active rejection of them and their pack of lies.

Absent such heavy handed public repudiation you have the presumtion of approval on the part of those without the common sense to decipher their false logic. To young ones that's all that's necessary to push them into joining a cult. Have no delusions about it; these are cults in the worst sense of the word.

Other Muslims not dealing with them long ago is why they are such a danger to civilization now. Make no mistake about it...they want the societal clock turned back to the 12th century.

This is why the West feels that if you won't take care of problems in your own house we will have to take care of them for you in our own self-defense, much as the police sometimes have to deal with an errant child its parents cannot control.

Dr. Mordrid

[SpiralDragon]

doc... there is alot you dont know... for the most part you are speaking of what the media is telling you but the reality is far difrent than that....

[Dr Mordrid]

I live in an area with the largest middle eastern population outside of the middle east and that problem exists []bHERE[/b], so it's something right in front of our faces locally.

Do we see marches in the streets against the extremeists in Cairo, Islamabad and the capitals of the other countries where this is going on? Nope.

Do we see them in the US or the UK? Nope, all we see are those morons in London calling for the UK to become an Islamic Republic

I've checked net sources in Islamic and non-Islamic countries looking for such events with no luck.

Got any links to support the contrary?

Dr. Mordrid

[The PIT]

Originally posted by GNEP
I have some muslim friends here in the UK. gnep

I used to live in a house with one. Nice guy, moderate told me a few truths about some of the Muslims and there aims. One by one what he said has become true. Most of the truths came after he'd visited the local Mosque. Sort made me wonder what they were saying in there. It upset him at times.