Missile defence starts construction in '04

[RedRed]

Thats right, Rags, its YOUR money. It comes from all the tax payers directly, or added to the national defecit. The % spent would have almost paid for your health system. It could have created a social service - ask Greebe or anyone who works in this area what a difference it could make to provision in some basic care for those who are neady in your society.

Personally, I am glad that we dont spend anywnere near that on defense. every dollar spent in either internal or external aid is well invested....
RedRed

[GT98]

Well part of the problem with State Run Medicine is that theres NO Incentive for Parhamicical Companies (Not saying they are angels now...far from it ) to develop create new wonder drugs....which isn't a good thing. Yes Health Care can suck in the USA, but what is the alterntive?

[Wulfman]

Originally posted by GT98
Well part of the problem with State Run Medicine is that theres NO Incentive for Parhamicical Companies to develop create new wonder drugs....

why does it matter for these companies if the patient pays for the drug or the government does?

or do I have the wrong concept of "state run health care"?

mfg
wulfman

[RedRed]

Well part of the problem with State Run Medicine is that theres NO Incentive for Parhamicical Companies

there is no more or less incentive for the Pharmacuiticals to produce any new drugs now......

Much of what has been discovered is not by them directly, rather it is through partnerships with universities and hospitals. Their skill is in bringing that through the torturous path to market.

We have a far-from-perfect health system here. However, if you need a wheelchair, you can get one, irrespective of your ability to pay (it could cost you or your insurance 12K in the states!). The Occupational therapist sitting beside me just signed off such a chair for a 14 yr old with downs syndrome. It will transform her life. Her parents live in a poor part of town, and would never be able to pay for such a thing...).

If you can pay for something extra - or experimental - fine, but the state needs to create a safety net for those who cant, or those who need support to become useful members of society.

Take my wife, for example. She runs an organisation (part govt funded) which has as its sole mission to both take adults with learning disibilities and equip them with the skills required to have a constructive life and to support them in employment. She also has a department in her organisation which supports buisinesses procative in employing her clients.

This is a proper social service. She has taken adults of all ages, helped them get recognised and valued qualifications (catering, mechanical, that sort of thing) and , more importantly, made them into tax payers, rather than benefit gatherers.... Some of these people were institutionalised for 20 years.....

Her organisation net spends more than her clients taxable liability. It is less expenisve than the benifit drain on society, however. The state will have to pay for some of this, however many indivuals no longer live in 'special homes' or are a burden to elderly parents - some of whom may also need help now through old age.... Its a quality of life thing.


It does somewhat digress from the thread, however...

RedRed

[K6-III]

Originally posted by GT98
Well part of the problem with State Run Medicine is that theres NO Incentive for Parhamicical Companies (Not saying they are angels now...far from it ) to develop create new wonder drugs....which isn't a good thing. Yes Health Care can suck in the USA, but what is the alterntive?

Sweden.

[Brian R.]

One alternative in the US is to vote for legislation that cripples FDA. By doing so, you will decrease the amount of money pharmaceutical companies will have to spend to gain approval for drugs. This should (ideally) greatly decrease the cost of drugs to the patient and health-care organizations. However, drug companies may not pass the savings to the customer.

The downside of this approach is by doing so, you are accepting greater risk of dangerous, mislabeled or adulterated drugs being placed on the market and being recommended by physicians who would be talked into prescribing them by the drug company rep.

[KeiFront]

I've read a interesting article in a Belgian newspaper last week, it was mostly about the Canadian wealth fare system.

But it also mentioned the US wealth fare system and it made some comparission between the Canadian, Belgian and the US wealth fare system.

The prices for medication raised every year with 10% in the US since 1992, some medicaments went up from 28$ to 72$ in just 8 years . Pharmaceutical companies responded that the high prices where due the increased research costs. Although they spended more money on advertisement cost then on research.

The last nine years the Pharmaceutical industry had the highest profit rate of all sectors. The profit of the biggest 500 companies in the us was 4.4%, the pharmaceutical industry had a profit of 18% and rising.

The article also mentioned a senator of Minnesota (Mark Dayton) who organized bus trips to Canada, so that seniors could buy there prescription drugs at a lower price .

http://www.mnseniors.net/0207snjul/rxexpress.html

http://dayton.senate.gov/prescription_drugs.html

EDIT: oops Mark Dayton is a senator thanks K6-III

[K6-III]

Mark Dayton is a senator.

[Dr Mordrid]

What's not mentioned in those articles are the number of Canadians who come across the border in order to get necessary surgeries and diagnostic tests.

Because of rationing of services, slowness in approving new drugs and the lack of up to date equipment people in Canada often wait for years to get what we consider basic diagnostic tests like heart catheterizations, angiograms, CAT or MRI scans or even necessary surgeries or medications Canada is dragging their feet on.

I spent 25 years working in Detroit area medical centers and a large portion of our patients came from Ontario and the other eastern provinces. Cleveland, Buffalo, New York City and other eastern medical centers have similar experiences.

These were not the rich people either, but retirees and just plain folks who just could not wait for the Canadian system to shift into gear or who the system preferred to ignore.

Basically Canada offers basic care and old drugs to everyone, but if you're over 50, need new drugs or fit into some risk catagory or another they prefer to schedule your diagnostics and/or treatment into near infinity in the hope you die before they have to pay for them

http://www.ncpa.org/pub/ba/ba346/

No bull...just facts. The Canadian model does not work!!

Also: the vast majority of those drug profits go to research into NEW medicines and procedures. No research, no new meds.

Dr. Mordrid

[GT98]

Getting back on my Drug company soap box....yeah they need money for research and stuff, but the bastards are so hung up about profits that they'll go out and change the color of the bottle the drug comes in just so they can keep the patent on it longer and thus Profits.

[Dr Mordrid]

Why do you think those drugs are so cheap in Canada?

Because while the number one use of profits is research the number two use is subsidizing drugs costs in other countries!!

Thank the US State Dept. & the 70's version of Congress for a lot of the encouragement that brought that on.

Dr. Mordrid

[RedRed]

Dr M

You are quite correct, a lot of canadian people will travel south for treatment - one of my development partners is Vancouver District HA. . The fact is that even in the UK, where we have an even more extensive health and social care system than canada, we can pay to jump the queue.

Thats how it works. In canada you or your insurance can 'go private' as many call it here. (even if you do 'go private', you dont pay the full cost of the care, just a premium.... the health service still pays the bulk of the cost) The fact is that if you elect not to spend extra cash you will be seen at some stage. If you need some basic drug or procedure or equipment to maintain a basic standard of life, you WILL get it.... You might have to wait on a procedure.... You wont get much that might be considered 'cosmetic'.

RedRed

[Dr Mordrid]

I hardly think being put on a waiting list 5 years long for a heart bypass when you already have 4-5 arteries plugged classifies as a "basic standard of life". It's more like "if we make the old fart wait long enough we won't have to pay for it".

Seen it myself and so much for Canadian "ethics".

Dr. Mordrid

[K6-III]

Again, sweden is a model that is closer to acceptable...

[RedRed]

Just this year I had some experience of this....

my father complained of tiredness and dizzyness at work (he is retired, but has a couple of student houses - he manages & maintains them).... He goes home and to bed....

couple of hours later, still doesnt feel great, calls a doctor - who comes out to visit him a few hours later. Doctor suspects angina, and asks him to come down to casualty.

He goes.

waits for 2 hours. Gets an ultrasound and some blood tests. Docs feel that it might be more, so they take him from his local (country hospital) up to the coronary care unit...

He get some more tests the next day, and its decided that he needs a full angiogram. He has to go to the city (by ambulance) hospital 30 miles away and the next day gets his angio. Its decided that he has a leaking valve and has 2 arteries partially occluded. He gets steints later that week (2 of).

he is out of hospital 3 days later. Total time: 10 days.

Total cost - £0.00 (except for 1 5pound phone card, and large amounts of fruit)

he is now on 3 teypes of medication (cant remember what ) and is recieving 3 month reviews (that will go to 6 months next year).

That was, I consider, good service. There are always horror stories by some - the NHS trated 2 million patients in hospital, and around 9 million outpatients last year.

Ot costs 6percent of your wages up to 23K. I think its worth it.


dad, btw is doing fine
RedRed