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  • Stop Moaning!!!!!!!11

    To all those moaning about apparent lack of bandwidth saving techniques such as Occlusion Culling please read on:

    Has no one read Matrox' website?

    Parhelia has no need to have the Z buffer culling techniques such as Occlusion culling and whatever ATi do with their Hyper-Z and so on because of Matrox' Patent Pending <B>Depth-Adaptive Tessellation</B>. This technique simplifies objects by reducing the number of polygons used to draw it as the object moves further away from the camera. This is so much more advanced than simply removing polygons you think/hope aren't needed.

    From the HDM Whitepaper:

    Depth-Adaptive Tessellation is an advanced tessellation scheme that tessellates meshes using multiple levels of detail (LODs) to maximize the geometry detail of a 3D scene while maintaining high levels of performance. By using LOD-based tessellation, the graphics processor
    avoids unnecessarily processing triangles that would otherwise not contribute significantly to the visual quality of the final rendered image.
    Lower levels of detail are acceptable when the object being rendered is further back in the scene. Because it appears smaller, it is rendered
    using a lower number of screen pixels. In fact, depending on the distance, increasing the number of triangles beyond a certain point may have
    little or no effect on an object's appearance. The ability to reduce the LOD for distant objects provides considerable savings on
    transformation, lighting, setup and rasterization, leaving a higher triangle budget for objects that are up-close.
    LODs can also be applied to an object whose mesh spans a significant portion of the scene's depth on the display. A good example of such
    an object is a terrain. For such objects, Depth-Adaptive Tessellation ensures that no cracks are seen on the seams where changes in LODs occur.
    This works both ways too - an object close up to the camera can be drawn using extra polygons to increase detail!

    ...[ tessellation ] converts a mesh with a low triangle count into a mesh with a higher triangle count.
    While tessellation does not significantly alter the underlying shape of the object, it sometimes helps to smooth the surface of the object...
    See hdmc_depth_avi.zip on http://www.matrox.com/mga/media_cent...arhelia512.cfm for a great video which shows this off.

    I'm amazed no-one has picked up on this!

  • #2
    Greebe did, and he continually beat me with it until I understood.

    amish
    Despite my nickname causing confusion, I have no religious affiliations.

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    • #3
      snickers
      "Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind." -- Dr. Seuss

      "Always do good. It will gratify some and astonish the rest." ~Mark Twain

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      • #4
        I thought that only applied to displacement maps.
        Last edited by TdB; 14 May 2002, 14:55.
        This sig is a shameless atempt to make my post look bigger.

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        • #5
          OK, I had the same question, and I see how DAT works and looks outsanding, but as TDB said, doesn't this only apply to HDM? If not, please explain to me like I'm in Kindergarten so I can understand. Some of the sites seem to worry about the lack of Occlusion(read: Anand, THG) so why wouldn't they mention this? I'm just trying to get a better understanding.

          Thanks,

          Dave
          Ladies and gentlemen, take my advice, pull down your pants and slide on the ice.

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          • #6
            Also, how does DAT get implemented into a game? Is this something a programmer has to add suppor for or is there something cool that allows it to just work?
            Ladies and gentlemen, take my advice, pull down your pants and slide on the ice.

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            • #7
              If DAT is for DM only (as I currently understand it to be), then I'd assume that it would be very easy to add DAT to a DM enabled game.

              But, what about DM then - is this going to be widely used? It sounds great obviously, and is it in DX8.x? Haig kept mentioning who needs DX9 - but DM is part of DX9, is it not?

              I presume the support will follow, as NVIDIA/ATi will surely include it soon (which is why I'm glad of the Parhelia promise - not just features and performce, but a new level/class/league of quality ).

              P.
              Meet Jasmine.
              flickr.com/photos/pace3000

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              • #8
                Well, I found the answer to my question. Here is what Haig said on the Matro forums:

                ______________________
                Don't you think you need it?
                or are you going to do it another way?(He is talking about Occlusion)

                No I don't think we need it. As Moep said, we have the bandwidth. Also, if developers start implimenting our tesselation support ("Depth acceleration unit for advanced Z processing"), there's no need since it lowers the amount of polys to draw in far away objects.
                ______________________

                After looking at the demos, I think that this is the way to go. It was very impressive. I hope Matrox has talked to or is talking to many game developers to implement this feature, otherwise, it is useless. This would be very unfortunate. Time will tell...

                Dave
                Ladies and gentlemen, take my advice, pull down your pants and slide on the ice.

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                • #9
                  The developers who have commented on this and displacement mapping are very excited.

                  Dr. Mordrid
                  Dr. Mordrid
                  ----------------------------
                  An elephant is a mouse built to government specifications.

                  I carry a gun because I can't throw a rock 1,250 fps

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                  • #10
                    I look at it this way, current games are dealt with easily, raw rendering power can still make then run smoothly at 1600x1200@32bit with all the eyecandy.

                    In the future, things will get even more detailed, but when we're lucky they will just have implemented DM and DAT, that way things will get a lot easier on the card suddenly, which will still make the game run very fast, maybe even faster.

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                    • #11
                      But we cant play in 4800*1200*32
                      I still want my parhelia though
                      Main Machine: Intel Q6600@3.33, Abit IP-35 E, 4 x Geil 2048MB PC2-6400-CL4, Asus Geforce 8800GTS 512MB@700/2100, 150GB WD Raptor, Highpoint RR2640, 3x Seagate LP 1.5TB (RAID5), NEC-3500 DVD+/-R(W), Antec SLK3700BQE case, BeQuiet! DarkPower Pro 530W

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by knirfie
                        But we cant play in 4800*1200*32
                        Why not
                        -Slougi

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                        • #13
                          Almost, you can play in 3840x1024.

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                          • #14
                            Yeah, I got the point now
                            /me slaps self
                            Anyway, imo for games 3840x1024 is enough
                            -Slougi

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                            • #15
                              yeah, Anand & Tom's seem worried about occlusion culling---or rather, the lack of "traditional" occlusion culling techniques. Re-read this from the Tech Report though:

                              TR: Does the Parhelia chip have any provisions for memory bandwidth conservation? If so, which techniques are implemented—Z compression, occlusion culling, fast Z clear? I see it has a "depth acceleration unit for advanced Z processing," but I'm looking for more detail.

                              DW: The Depth Acceleration unit and Depth Cache deals with the Z-buffer and managing access to the Z-buffer in an efficient way. This area includes logic to perform fast Z clears and also sophisticated logic to queue up Z-reads and Z-writes so that they are always done in burst access. And more generally, while Parhelia-512 has a great deal of raw memory bandwidth, it is an intelligent memory controller whose architecture allows granular access of data and also optimizes the access from the intensity, depth, fragment and texture buffers through multiple independent sub-controllers.
                              The overall architecture of the entire chip is extremely complex with various optimization techniques. Some topline optimizations are the inclusion of fast Z clears and multiple large caches to hide page breaks and to maximize burst efficiency. If you look on the chip block diagram you will see that the depth unit, Fragment AA unit, pixel unit, texture units and the display units all interact with the 512-bit Memory controller array. Each of these sub-units has specific logic to optimize memory efficiency, and the memory controller array itself then arbitrates between all of the different requests sent by these different units. There are multiple independent controllers in this array and they can access different information simultaneously.

                              Wow. I'm getting all tingly.
                              Seems to me like a much more sophisticated approach to the problem than anything the competition has---Anand and Tom's worry because you can't point to the "Hyper-Z" unit in the diagram, when it's all the units working together to do the same thing, only smarter.

                              --e
                              Iwill KK266-R
                              Athlon Tbird 1GHz AYHJAR oc'd to 1.5 GHz
                              128 megs Corsair PC133
                              Windows 98 SE
                              Matrox G400 MAX DH 32mb
                              -----------------------------------

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