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The France/Syria/China Connection.....

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  • Spiral:

    I don't think I've ever heard quite so eloquent an expression of why so many people feel compelled to leave their native lands to make a new life for themselves in America (Canada OR US). I'm NOT being sarcastic. So many of us born here (including YOU, KvH) cannot imagine how things could have been so awful in our ancestors' lands of origin that they were willing to leave EVERYTHING behind for a fresh start.

    (I apply that argument even to the ancestors of todays Native Americans. After all, no one WALKS across ten thousand miles of frozen ice-age wasteland toward an uncertain future without a VERY good reason!)

    It's easy to say "you should try to make your native land better," and on the surface that sounds logical, even noble. But again, I don't think anyone raised in this part of the world can fully comprehend how monumentally difficult that can be. How many millions of gallons of blood has been spent in such causes, both just and unjust?

    In fact, people have been complaining about immigrants since before the indians looked at the Mayflower, anchored off Plymouth Rock, and said "That's just great. Boat People!" History shows us in pretty clear terms that despite the misgivings of the natives, every influx of immigrants has brought a much-needed infusion of fresh blood and fresh ideas. AS LONG AS those immigrants are willing to adapt themselves without reservation to the higher ideals of their adopted nation.

    Naturally, where such a willingness is missing, trouble can arise. Speaking of those German immigrants of earlier years, my mom remembers when the local German population was so insulated from the mainstream that they even had their own newspapers which supported the Kaiser in WWI and printed anti-US propaganda and the most vicious slanders of Woodrow Wilson, all under the protection of the First Amendment. It wasn't until mom left the farm and moved to the "Big City" (Bismarck!) that she learned how much of what she had learned as a child was BS.

    Frankly I'm less worried about the immigrants than I am about our ability or willingness to teach them and their children what they need in order to be loyal, productive citizens. There's just as much room on this continent for a dash of Muslim culture as there is for German culture, or Hispanic culture, or Chinese, or Japanese, or Vietnamese, or Dutch, or English. Sure, our laws against illegal immigration need to be better enforced, and we should be screening legal immigrants more closely, but to advocate closing the doors to immigration completely seems to me the ultimate in hypocrisy.

    Kevin

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    • Originally posted by KRSESQ
      Sure, our laws against illegal immigration need to be better enforced, and we should be screening legal immigrants more closely, but to advocate closing the doors to immigration completely seems to me the ultimate in hypocrisy.
      <p><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="1">"Dadinho o C@r@$, meu nome agora � Z� Pequeno" - City Of God</font></p>
      <p><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="1">A64 @ 2,25 + 1GB + GT6600</font> </p>

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      • Well, maybe if war is inevitable, and Bush is intent upon making an Arab democracy out of the place, there will be an Arab state for many disaffected Arabs to find a home, as many Europeans did in the Netherlands during the 1600s and 1700s.

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        • I wouldn't be one bit surprised if such thinking is prominent in the Administration's plans for a post-Saddam Iraq.

          Kevin

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          • Originally posted by Dr Mordrid
            A generic increase in terrorism is irrelevant. The issue is that one more state won't be sponsoring terrorism, which is a greater danger to the world than generic terrorism itself because it is very likely to put even more powerful weapons in their hands.

            As far as the arab-Israeli conflict vs. UN goes:

            yes, the Palestinians have a bitch, but they had a way out of it back in 1999 when Israel offered them 99.9% of what they wanted and Arafat turned it down!! Even he now admits that was a major screwup, at least for PR purposes. After this epipheny his next move wasn't contrition and an attempt at reconciliation back to that point but was instead to encourage the current rounds of homocide bombings. So much for common sense on their part

            OTOH the UN has been refusing to condemn the Palestinian Authority, and its militant wing, for its transgressions as well as the Israelis. In my mind this exposes their anti-semitic leanings and fully justifies our vetos.

            Their constant hammering of a nation that has been under constant attack for defending itself borders on the rediculous.

            Dr. Mordrid
            I think it will increase terrorist acts, and will bolster the case for Muslims to join the jihad against the west.

            The USA can do what it wants, it can be on their heads. I just hope Britain isn't just going to go along for the ride, as we add another range of targets to hit.
            Meet Jasmine.
            flickr.com/photos/pace3000

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            • Thank you KRSESQ.....
              "They say that dreams are real only as long as they last. Couldn't you say the same thing about life?"

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              • Originally posted by SpiralDragon
                arafat IS a screwup......

                and please sont tell me you are saying that arabs are anti-semits
                I'm not. I'm saying that the UN collectively has been anti-semitic and has only been restrained by our vetos.

                Dr. Mordrid
                Dr. Mordrid
                ----------------------------
                An elephant is a mouse built to government specifications.

                I carry a gun because I can't throw a rock 1,250 fps

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                • SpiralDragon;

                  Don't you think getting Syria & the other state-sponsors of terrorist groups on a leash would help Lebanon? The radicals are their dogs after all and absent financial support for weapons, training & logistics....

                  Dr. Mordrid
                  Dr. Mordrid
                  ----------------------------
                  An elephant is a mouse built to government specifications.

                  I carry a gun because I can't throw a rock 1,250 fps

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                  • if you think that would help then you have absoloutly no understanding of midle eastern politics... it dosent stop with syria and/or iran..... lebanon is devided between the warlords of the civil war..... you think that our christians in this country are any better than hisboulah... you think that the druz are any beter.... you have absouloutly no idea.... the people here hate each other simply becuse that is the only way the leaders can stay in power.... they say lebanon is a democracy... in comparison with other arab countries yes we have more freedoms.... but we are no where neer a democracy... syrian intervention or not..
                    "They say that dreams are real only as long as they last. Couldn't you say the same thing about life?"

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                    • But Spiral, would stopping syria and iran and other possible countries from supportoing factions in lebanon only not at least help (or allow lebanon in coming to terms with its division along faction lines as it is now?
                      Umf
                      Join MURCs Distributed Computing effort for Rosetta@Home and help fight Alzheimers, Cancer, Mad Cow disease and rising oil prices.
                      [...]the pervading principle and abiding test of good breeding is the requirement of a substantial and patent waste of time. - Veblen

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                      • yeah right...... lebanon come to terms with its divisions.... not in a hundred years.... and not as long as religion still has a say in politics and not untill the people who have been rulling lebanon since the beging step aside and give room to people who have a genuin nationalistic intrest rather than an intrest to gain power and dominon over parts of the country and run it like mini dictators under the ubrela of parlament..... seriously even without the outside infulence (not only estern powers but also western powers) things have always been this bad and will look wors in the coming days
                        "They say that dreams are real only as long as they last. Couldn't you say the same thing about life?"

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                        • as fr as lebanons problems are concerned out side influnec is seriously irelevent...... there is tooooo much curuption here and the people are like sheep... they folow the shepheard even when they know the shepherd is leading them to the sloughter
                          "They say that dreams are real only as long as they last. Couldn't you say the same thing about life?"

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                          • Call me a naive twit but, if at least some lebanese want to get out of this mess, they will, I expect, find it much harder to change anything as long as outside interference does not stop. The reason is that none of the outsiders would want a movement like that to become viable because they can;t control it anymore. They'd rather have influence/control over a part then let their influence pass. The price of course is paid by most lebanese. Don;t mean toi say it is easy, but I refuse to believe that such a society can not be changed for the better over time.

                            Ignorant though I am on Saudi-Arabia (but he, what else is new?), I'd venture that there it is far harder to change society. Why? Because there is only one ruling class for which it is therefor much easier to supress any movement for change.

                            And with all the misconceptions I have on US foreign policy, one of the reasons why I distrust the US in the Iraq affair is that, to my mind, the US has usually favoured strong dictators over weak democracies (that might fall to communism and then US influence would be zilch).

                            I think it is very very clear that Iraq is in violation of UN resolutions. I think the UN should make a point of enforcing their resolution, hence, intervention in my book is justified. Problem is, the US is not the right party to do it (and I think the US would love it if someone else did it for them). So, I do hope the US will act and will cause Iraq to have a new government and that it will move towards democracy, freedom and justice (oh my gawd). I'm afraid though that the US will not succeed. Winning a war will be far easier then changing society. Any well functioning democracy took centuries to get there (well, the US didn't, but that could be seen as a continiuation of changes occuring in Europe and of course they lacked a real ruling class). No, I am afraid it will fuel fanatics to target the US even more and that it will cost them dearly. Another factor is, I think, that the neighbouring arab countries will not be favourable towards such an Iraq. US, methinks you got some bad friends over there.

                            In any case, if you stick to the plan of aiding Iraq in rebuilding (to the extent necessary) and becoming a true democracy, I say: "go do it". If the US can show that thta is the intention, then I feel that all western-euopean countries shoudl support that.

                            For all those that will loose family and friends...... I am sorry for your loss. Let's hope it will not be for naught.
                            Umf
                            Join MURCs Distributed Computing effort for Rosetta@Home and help fight Alzheimers, Cancer, Mad Cow disease and rising oil prices.
                            [...]the pervading principle and abiding test of good breeding is the requirement of a substantial and patent waste of time. - Veblen

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                            • sory i wasnt implying that you are nieve.... but belive me when i tll you that outside influence is irelevent the situation here in lebanon will continue to be as it has been since the17th century till now with or with out external influance..... actualy inspite of all the crap we get from syria if the syrians where taken out of the picture lebanon would fall apart.... belive me when i tell you that the serians are getting tad bit sick of all the petty bikering that goes on here between the ledears even though this used to be to their benefit befor......

                              the christians want the syrians out.. great meny moslims want them out too... but they want state it publicly..... but you see the problem is as folowes... the syrians came in to lebanon in request of the christians... the muslims where geting the harsh end of the stick back then... now that the syrians changed preferances the muslims are (somwhat) happy and the christians are not... remove the syrians from the equation and soon they will be at eachothers throghts again.... lebanon is schisophrenic... on one side they people say we should boycot american goods and down with the USA the greate satan and the next thing you see the same people at macdonalds, TGIF, starbucks, KFC etc... and this is just on the superfical side..... you have people who have muslim and christian freinds but who refuse to intermary.... there are people who would only mary a vergin but have no problem screwing every chick that comes in their way...

                              then you have the younger generation who have no idea about anything.... only care for themselves and their enjoyment... our leaders have made sure that the public remains ignorant so that they may keep their hold on them... and if one day they decide to sqwable amongst them selves... it will be war all over again...

                              one great such example is the presens of "political parties" at our university.... when there is an election for student representaion (we dont have a student government.. more on that in a bit)
                              all you see is the flag of one party and that of another.... they fight amongst eachother over stupidities.... a few freinds and i have set out to iradicate this problem.... we tried showing them how stupid they are ... simply by asking them what thier party stands for... they could never anser t he question other than the obvious i folow party X becuse they are muslims or christians... BS.... as it turnes out this whole problem of the University elections could be put on a leash if we had a student government where instead of having the whole univerity vote for 10 students.... students from the difrent faculties and departments would ellect representatives and from them a government will be formed... the problem with the curent method is that the parties pool in thire recurses to elect their candidates... with the new system people from the art, engeneering, and arch. faculties will finaly get a say (curently the domination is from the busyness faculty) these other faculties are not intrested in the political parties..... but no... that cant be.. in the eyes of the person in charge that will only breed more political problems... the truth .. that very same person incharge wants the curent system to remain in effect so tha the students remain devided and thus not revolt against the administartion for charging high tuition fees and providing shit education.... and i meen shit education.... when my litle group united we where able to do alot of damage.... we got that person out of office... but now my group has graduated and there is no one left to cary on the fight... the curent students thaink they are gods... and they fight amongst eachother like the roman gods.... and again the administration is having its way....

                              i hope this twisted malformed illustration gives you an idea of how things are here....
                              "They say that dreams are real only as long as they last. Couldn't you say the same thing about life?"

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                              • edited: removed the pic couse i wasn't thinking when i posted... i agree with gurm on this isue and so thought the best thing to do is corect my mistake....
                                Last edited by SpiralDragon; 18 March 2003, 02:27.
                                "They say that dreams are real only as long as they last. Couldn't you say the same thing about life?"

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