The France/Syria/China Connection.....

[Brian R.]

What has happened to change our historical policy of only entering a war when provoked by attack? Nothing that I know of. We maintained this policy even after WWII and Pearl Harbor. We should not enter a new phase of diplomacy where we feel justified in knocking off any perceived threat with a preemptive strike.

We, as Americans, should take the high road and not be the ones to initiate a war, no matter what the price.

Increase our villigance and security yes. Do not sacrifice our ideals for the sake of security. We have had our purpose swayed by the terrorists in this case.

As one of the leaders of nations, we need to set an example for others to follow. Is this attack on Iraq really the example we want to set? Not in my opinion.

JMHO

[Joel]

What has changed our historical policy of only entering a war when provoked by attack? Nothing that I know of. We should not enter a new phase of diplomacy where we feel justified in knocking off any perceived threat with a preemptive strike.

You're right Brian we should just wait until he has nuclear capabilities and then blows up some city killing millions before we do anything. The connections to the 9/11 attacks and others have been shown it's just that some people are too brain dead to open their eyes and see or don't want too because then they would have to admit that there is justification for this war. Then again if we really want to set an example then we should take the leash off of Israel and allow them to do what they feel is needed to protect their people instead of telling them not to do anything as more and more of their innocent men, women, and childern are slaughtered by these so called "freedom fighters".

Joel

[Brian R.]

Originally posted by Joel
The connections to the 9/11 attacks and others have been shown it's just that some people are too brain dead to open their eyes and see or don't want too because then they would have to admit that there is justification for this war.

Joel

The liberals are not the only ones that are braindead.

Evidently, people require only sufficient information to support their fears. There is very little (if any) data rooted in hard facts supporting any assumption about SH's nuclear capabilities.

[Nowhere]

Joel, it's a gift for him, that's exactly what he wants...ooo he will be so happy...

You see, people in many countries don't remember that USA did something in their territory for world peace. They just remember that US military did something. They remember for example that in Sudan after air raids died several thousand people...those are the things that are remembered...
If there will be a war, you will have after it ends new allies, new enemies and new terrorists...I wonder how many man who will lost their wifes and kids will learn pilot cyvil plane during next years...

About what you should do, statistisc (those are worthless IMHO) and what Brian R. just said:

Of course, people don't want war. That's understandable. But after all, it's the leaders of the country who are determining policy. Leading people is an easy task, regardless if we're speaking about parliament, democracy, fascist dictatorship or communist dictatorship. Voting or not, people can always be put into role of performing the will of leader. That's easy. All you have to do is to tell them, that they are being attacked, and condemn pacifists for the lack of patriotism and putting your country in danger. This works the same way everywhere.
Herman Goering, Luftwaffe commander, 1946

btw, Dr Mordrid (about "As far as "Kauft nicht bei Juden!" goes; it's more like "Kauft nicht mit hypocrits!".
Dr. Mordrid") - I think that Goebbels also very liked this definition...

About other things, I agree with Damien in "Providing bio weapons is not a mistake. It is called taking advantage of the situation at hand and then dealing with the outcome later." And I think that USA didn't learned after couple of mistakes (oh, and just to be clear - majority of countries are making that fundamental mistake all the time...). I mean, Dr Mordrid said "Our policy is that the friend of our enemy is our enemy as well.", and that's ok, I fully agree with this policy (btw Dr Mordrid, you were sort of friend to Taliban and Hussein - does that mean you are now your own enemy? ;P). But there's another one: "enemy of my enemy is my friend". And that one IMO, shouldn't be applicable to foreign policy of any country. Unfortunatelly, it is. It were too many times. That's because we had mess with Taliban, now with Hussein, and also for example with Soviet Union...

[KvHagedorn]

We in America have been lucky during the past century. We have not been devastated by wars. If you will remember, it was we who were the pacifists in World War I, not getting involved until the very end. Our national sentiment at that time arose from the many who still remembered the Civil War and what a ruinous scar it left upon our land. Imagine this 100 times worse and you will have Germany at the end of WWII.


(A more accurate translation would be "Fight the warmongers!")

Perhaps now some of my fellow Americans here can understand European reluctance to participate in wars, especially as the agressor. We ourselves beat this out of them at the time. Do you have any understanding of why Germans are reluctant to talk about the War? It is because, almost to a man, each and every one of them can tell you of devastating losses by their families during this time, and to add insult to this, these dead family members continue to be defamed by American filmmakers to this very day, and guilt is heaped upon guilt when they don't really deserve that.

And yet, they are expected to toe the line and support the U.S.A. no matter what it does.. as "good allies." Well, people have a right to their own opinions, and while France's position might be an international power play, that of Germany deserves more respect. When the grandchildren of Dresden and Hamburg decry "bombing" in particular, they have their reasons.. lest The U.S. and Britain forget their own war crimes of that era.

Let me tell you my position.. it is a complex one. It is primarily based upon the fact that, in this instance, we will be the agressors. This is a pre-emptive strike against a perceived enemy, and it bears an uncanny resemblance to the situation in July-August of 1914 when Austria was attacked by terrorists and had the world's sympathies, but managed to turn those sympathies around very quickly when she became determined upon a course of agressive war to end this terrorist threat. Austria had only a single ally.. one who understood their position by the virtue of a commonality of language.. the U.S. has Britain, and pretty much only Britain. WWI had been preceded by many years of peace and prosperity, but the last war had been similar.. the Franco-Prussian War of 1870. In this war France was the agressor, as Saddam was in 1991. Germany's position in 1914 was to pre-empt French agression by a swift victory of their own. The parallels are striking, and they make me very nervous about this whole affair. War is serious business, and not to be taken lightly. Is Saddam really a threat? Possibly. But we have him under our shoe right now.. the question we really should be asking ourselves is "is this trip really necessary?" I do not really want to enter into a war unless we are absolved from having started it in the first place. We cannot afford to throw away our honor on the world stage so lightly, especially if this conflict turns out to be more than meets the eye right now. I could go on, but you get the gist of my thoughts. These are the reasons I beleive it would be prudent to back off for the moment.

[SpiralDragon]

Originally posted by Joel
You're right Brian we should just wait until he has nuclear capabilities and then blows up some city killing millions before we do anything. The connections to the 9/11 attacks and others have been shown it's just that some people are too brain dead to open their eyes and see or don't want too because then they would have to admit that there is justification for this war. Then again if we really want to set an example then we should take the leash off of Israel and allow them to do what they feel is needed to protect their people instead of telling them not to do anything as more and more of their innocent men, women, and childern are slaughtered by these so called "freedom fighters".

Joel

joel i have alot of respect for you but forgive me for being so rude and blunt....:

i am not going to dwell on the past paracticies of the US... (hiroshima, vietnam, korea and others) enugh has been said about that and i belive that enugh evidence exists showing how the US did kill inocents in large numbers....

as far as isreal goes... you actualy think that the US has a leashe on them... hah.....

just look at the ratio of people kiled on both sides.. discounting militia and military.... the number of casualties on the palestinian side as far far greater....... do i condone the suicided bombings? no idont.. but i do think they are just as barberic as the IDF......

but to claim more and more incocent israili men, women, and childern are being slaughtered with out even mentioning the even more and more inocent palestinian men, women, and childern that are being slaughtered is unethicalm inhuman and out right barbaric..... is arafat an saint? no ****ing way... he is and sharon are devils in disguies... they are so for subjecting their people to this kind of barbarisem.....

and if the US is so keen on inforcing UN resulutions here is a list of resolutions that have not been ratified..... (see next post,... it did not all fit here)

[SpiralDragon]

Resolution 252 (1968) Israel Urgently calls upon Israel to rescind
measures that change the legal status of Jerusalem, including the
expropriation of land and properties thereon.
262 (1968) Israel Calls upon Israel to pay compensation to Lebanon
for destruction of airliners at Beirut International Airport.
267 (1969) Israel Urgently calls upon Israel to rescind measures
seeking to change the legal status of occupied East Jerusalem.
271 (1969) Israel Reiterates calls to rescind measures seeking to
change the legal status of occupied East Jerusalem and calls on
Israel to scrupulously abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention
regarding the responsibilities of occupying powers.
298 (1971) Israel Reiterates demand that Israel rescind measures
seeking to change the legal status of occupied East Jerusalem.
353 (1974) Turke Calls on nations to respect the sovereignty,
independence, and territorial integrity of Cyprus and for the
withdrawal without delay of foreign troops from Cyprus.
354 (1974) Turkey Reiterates provisions of UNSC resolution 353.
360 (1974) Turkey Reaffirms the need for compliance with prior
resolutions regarding Cyprus "without delay."
364 (1974) Turkey Reaffirms the need for compliance with prior
resolutions regarding Cyprus.
367 (1975) Turkey Reaffirms the need for compliance with prior
resolutions regarding Cyprus.
370 (1975) Turkey Reaffirms the need for compliance with prior
resolutions regarding Cyprus.
377 (1979) Morocco Calls on countries to respect the right of selfdetermination
for Western Sahara.
379 (1979) Morocco Calls for the withdrawal of foreign forces from
Western Sahara.
380 (1979) Morocco Reiterates the need for compliance with previous
resolutions.
391 (1976) Turkey Reaffirms the need for compliance with prior
resolutions regarding Cyprus.
401 (1976) Turkey Reaffirms the need for compliance with prior
resolutions regarding Cyprus.
414 (1977) Turkey Reaffirms the need for compliance with prior
resolutions regarding Cyprus.
422 (1977) Turkey Reaffirms the need for compliance with prior
resolutions regarding Cyprus.
440 (1978) Turkey Reaffirms the need for compliance with prior
resolutions regarding Cyprus.
446 (1979) Israel Calls upon Israel to scrupulously abide by the Fourth
Geneva Convention regarding the responsibilities of occupying
powers, to rescind previous measures that violate these relevant
provisions, and "in particular, not to transport parts of its civilian
population into the occupied Arab territories."
452 (1979) Israel Calls on the government of Israel to cease, on an
urgent basis, the establishment, construction, and planning of
settlements in the Arab territories, occupied since 1967, including
Jerusalem.
465 (1980) Israel Reiterates previous resolutions on Israel's
settlements policy.
471 (1980) Israel Demands prosecution of those involved in
assassination attempts of West Bank leaders and compensation for
damages; reiterates demands to abide by Fourth Geneva
Convention.
484 (1980) Israel Reiterates request that Israel abide by the Fourth
Geneva Convention.
487 (1981) Israel Calls upon Israel to place its nuclear facilities under
the safeguard of the UN's International Atomic Energy Agency.
497 (1981) Israel Demands that Israel rescind its decision to impose
its domestic laws in the occupied Syrian Golan region.
541 (1983) Turkey Reiterates the need for compliance with prior
resolutions and demands that the declaration of an independent
Turkish Cypriot state be withdrawn.
550 (1984) Turkey Reiterates UNSC resolution 541 and insists that
member states may "not to facilitate or in any way assist" the
secessionist entity.
573 (1985) Israel Calls on Israel to pay compensation for human and
material losses from its attack against Tunisia and to refrain from all
such attacks or threats of attacks against other nations.
592 (1986) Israel Insists Israel abide by the Fourth Geneva
Conventions in East Jerusalem and other occupied territories.
605 (1987) Israel Calls once more upon Israel, the occupying Power, to
abide immediately and scrupulously by the Geneva Convention
relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Times of War, and to
desist forthwith from its policies and practices that are in violations of
the provisions of the Convention.
607 (1986) IsraelReiterates calls on Israel to abide by the Fourth
Geneva Convention and to cease its practice of deportations from
occupied Arab territories.
608 (1988) Israel Reiterates call for Israel to cease its deportations.
636 (1989) Israel Reiterates call for Israel to cease its deportations.
641 (1989) Israel Reiterates previous resolutions calling on Israel to
desist in its deportations.
658 (1990) Morocco Calls upon Morocco to "cooperate fully" with the
Secretary General of the United Nations and the chairman of the
Organization of African Unity "in their efforts aimed at an early
settlement of the question of Western Sahara."
672 (1990) Israel Reiterates calls for Israel to abide by provisions of
the Fourth Geneva Convention in the occupied Arab territories.
673 (1990) Israel Insists that Israel come into compliance with
resolution 672.
681 (1990) Israel Reiterates call on Israel to abide by Fourth Geneva
Convention in the occupied Arab territories.
690 (1991) Morocco Calls upon both parties to cooperate fully with
the Secretary General in implementing a referendum on the fate of
the territory.
694 (1991) Morocco Reiterates that Israel "must refrain from deporting
any Palestinian civilian from the occupied territories and ensure the
safe and immediate return of all those deported."
716 (1991) Morocco Reaffirms previous resolutions on Cyprus.
725 (1991) Morocco Calls upon the two parties to cooperate fully in
the settlement plan.
726 (1992) Israel Reiterates calls on Israel to abide by the Fourth
Geneva Convention and to cease its practice of deportations from
occupied Arab territories.
799 (1992) Israel Reaffirms applicability of Fourth Geneva Convention
to all Palestinian territories occupied by Israel since 1967, including
Jerusalem, and affirms that deportation of civilians constitutes a
contravention of its obligations under the Convention.
807 (1993) Croatia Demands return of heavy weapons seized from UN
storage areas.
809 (1992) Morocco Reiterates call to cooperate with the peace
settlement plan, particularly regarding voter eligibility for referendum.
815 (1993) Croatia Reaffirms UNSC resolution 807.
822 (1993) Armenia Calls for Armenia to implement the "immediate
withdrawal of all occupying forces from the Kelbadjar district and
other recently occupied areas of Azerbaijan."
853 (1993) Armenia Demands "complete and unconditional withdrawal
of the occupying forces" from Azerbaijani territory.
874 (1993) Armenia Reiterates calls for withdrawal of occupation
forces.
884 (1993) Armenia Calls on Armenia to use its influence to force
compliance by Armenian militias to previous resolutions and to
withdraw its remaining occupation forces.
896 (1994) Russia Calls upon all concerned to respect the sovereignty
and territorial integrity of the Republic of Georgia.
904 (1994) IsraelCalls upon Israel, as the occupying power, "to take
and implement measures, inter alia, confiscation of arms, with the
aim of preventing illegal acts of violence by settlers."
973 (1995) Morocco Reiterates the need for cooperation with United
Nations and expediting referendum on the fate of Western Sahara.
995 (1995) Morocco Calls for "genuine cooperation" with UN efforts to
move forward with a referendum.
1002 (1995) Morocco Reiteration of call for "genuine cooperation" with
UN efforts.

[SpiralDragon]

1009 (1995) Croatia Demands that Croatia "respect fully the rights of
the local Serb population to remain, leave, or return in safety."
1017 (1995) Morocco Reiterates the call for "genuine cooperation" with
UN efforts and to cease "procrastinating actions which could further
delay the referendum."
1033 (1995) Morocco Reiterates call for "genuine cooperation" with
UN efforts.
1044 (1996) Sudan Calls upon Sudan to extradite to Ethiopia for
prosecution three suspects in an assassination attempt of visiting
Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak and to cease its support for
sanctuary and offering of sanctuary to terrorists.
1054 (1996) Sudan Demands that Sudan come into compliance with
UNSC resolution 1044.
1056 (1996) Morocco Calls for the release of political prisoners from
occupied Western Sahara.
1070 (1996) Sudan Reiterates demands to comply with 1044 and
1054.
1073 (1996) Israel Calls on the safety and security of Palestinian
civilians to be ensured.
1079 (1996) Croatia Reaffirms right of return for Serbian refugees to
Croatia.
1092 (1996) Turkey/Cyprus Calls for a reduction of foreign troops in
Cyprus as the first step toward a total withdrawal troops as well as a
reduction in military spending.
1117 (1997) Turkey/Cyprus Reiterates call for a reduction of foreign
troops in Cyprus as the first step toward a total withdrawal troops and
reduction in military spending.
1120 (1997) Croatia Reaffirms right of return for Serbian refugees to
Croatia and calls on Croatia to change certain policies that obstruct
this right, and to treat its citizens equally regardless of ethnic origin.
1172 (1998) India, Pakistan Calls upon India and Pakistan to cease
their development of nuclear weapons and ballistic missiles.
1178 (1998) Turkey/Cyprus Reiterates call for a substantial reduction
of foreign troops and reduction in military spending.
1185 (1998) Morocco Calls for the lifting of restrictions of movement
by aircraft of UN peacekeeping force.
1215 (1998) Morocco Urges Morocco to promptly sign a "status of
forces agreement."
1217 (1998) Turkey/Cyprus Reiterates call for a substantial reduction
of foreign troops and reduction in military spending.
1251 (1999) Turkey/Cyprus Reiterates call for a substantial reduction
of foreign troops and reduction in military spending.
1264 (1999) Indonesia Calls on Indonesia to provide safe return for
refugees and punish those for acts of violence during and after the
referendum campaign.
1272 (1999) Indonesia Stresses the need for Indonesia to provide for
the safe return for refugees and maintain the civilian and
humanitarian character of refugee camps.
1283 (1999) Turkey/Cyprus Reiterates UNSC resolution 1251.
1303 (2000) Turkey/Cyprus Reiterates UNSC resolutions 1283 and
1251.
1319 (2000) Indonesia Insists that Indonesia "take immediate
additional steps, in fulfillment of its responsibilities, to disarm and
disband the militia immediately, restore law and order in the affected
areas of West Timor, ensure safety and security in the refugee
camps and for humanitarian workers, and prevent incursions into
East Timor." Stresses that those guilty of attacks on international
personnel be brought to justice and reiterates the need to provide
safe return for refugees who wish to repatriate and provide
resettlement for those wishing to stay in Indonesia.
1322 (2000) Israel Calls upon Israel to scrupulously abide by the
Fourth Geneva Convention regarding the responsibilities of
occupying power.
1331 (2000) Turkey/Cyprus Reiterates UNSC resolution 1251 and
subsequent resolutions.
1338 (2001) Indonesia Calls for Indonesian cooperation with the UN
and other international agencies in the fulfillment of UNSC resolution
1319.
1359 (2001) Morocco Calls on the parties to "abide by their
obligations under international humanitarian law to release without
further delay all those held since the start of the conflict."
1384 (2001) Turkey/Cyprus Reiterates 1251 and all relevant
resolutions on Cyprus.
1402 (2002) Israel Calls for Israel to withdraw from Palestinian cities.
1403 (2002) Israel Demands that Israel go through with "the
implementation of its resolution 1402, without delay."
1405 (2002) Israel Calls for UN inspectors to investigate civilian
deaths during an Israeli assault on the Jenin refugee camp.
1416 (2002) Turkey/Cyprus Reiterates UNSC resolution 1251 and all
relevant resolutions on Cyprus.
1435 (2002) Israel Calls on Israel to withdraw to positions of
September 2000 and end its military activities in and around
Ramallah, including the destruction of security and civilian
infrastructure.


yes some people are too brain dead to open their eyes and see..... the US is one of them, france is too and the UN is the bigest culprit of them all

[SpiralDragon]

If any one feels ofended by wht i have posted then let me know so that i remove the ofensive posts.... and i meen it

[KvHagedorn]

I only feel offended because now no one will see what I posted seven minutes before you...

[SpiralDragon]

well sory aboutt that

[Gurm]

Originally posted by SpiralDragon
i was wondering the same thing about israil......

should i provide you with a list....?

Actually you can't. Despite all the rhetoric coming from the Palestinian camp, Israel has not actually broken any definitive laws.

I see lots of resolutions coming from Arab states demanding that Israel stop being "mean".

I see lots of resolutions saying "we ask you nicely to play fair", and "we urge you to think twice about being mean".

LOL.

Which, sadly, is typical of the UN.

- Gurm

[efty]

Israel has not actually broken any definitive laws.

Yeah Sure, and pigs can fly

[RedRed]

KV
Without a doubt that was the best post I have ever seen you make.....

Thanks

RedRed

[Pace]

Originally posted by Joel
You're right Brian we should just wait until he has nuclear capabilities and then blows up some city killing millions before we do anything. The connections to the 9/11 attacks and others have been shown it's just that some people are too brain dead to open their eyes and see or don't want too because then they would have to admit that there is justification for this war. Then again if we really want to set an example then we should take the leash off of Israel and allow them to do what they feel is needed to protect their people instead of telling them not to do anything as more and more of their innocent men, women, and childern are slaughtered by these so called "freedom fighters".

So, you think letting Israel defend themselves with all means necessary is wrong? So, what are the US about to do?

9/11 is nothing new. All it has done is open a certain countries eyes that terrorism can happen to them too.

So, to every American here, do you think bombing Iraq will increase or decrease the probability of terrorist action against the USA?