China the puppetmaster?

[RedRed]

http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/11.05/view.html?pg=4

India /Pakistan space race???

RedRed

[Brian Ellis]

I don't believe this glib journalese. The situation in S and E Asia is much more profound and complex than that, IMHO.

I hate simplistic journalism: it has caused many conflicts.

[Chrono_Wanderer]

Right now I don't have enough time to read the article... I may read it later...

However, AFAIK China has pretty good relationships with Pakistan. For example, I think there is a joint development between these 2 conuntries in the airforce. The project is called the "Super 7 upgrade". I think it is to heavily modernize the outdated Chinese J-7. However, I doubt that this is going to be successful, because:

1) The Russian refuse to supply the engine for this aircraft
2) The PLAAF (Chinese Air Force) is building A LOT of SU-27 (Flankers) usinig copyrights given by the Russians, a lot of SU30-MMK imports from Russia, and China is starting to mass produce their new J-10 fighter with performance probably superior to the F-16 (Eagle?).

However, the project IMO shows some degree of co-operation between these two countries, considering what they are doing is military related. But help from Russian is very critical to the success for any of these countries.

On the other hand, China has very bad relationships with India. But given the economic status of India, I don't know if they will stand a chance... (Not to offend any Indian here, but AFAIK Chinese government is a bit richer and they are very aggressive on fighters/space tech these days).

However, India's LCA is something to watch out for. I can probably take out the Chinese J-7, which is the major aircraft in PLAAF... (I think the LCA will rival the Super-7 upgrade)

So yea... I think the success of these three countries depends on how much the Russian will support them. (i.e. Look at the Super 7 for example, Russian refuse to sell the engine and the project becomes not too promising.)

edit: Oh yea... one more thing... Russia and India are developing a fifth generation Joint aircarft together which may rival the US F-22/F35 JSF. China is at a disadvantage here because China's plan on the XXJ Fifth Gen-fighter may not receive much help from Russia. (However, I wondered why China refused to help Russia when Russian offered a joint development for the Russian 5th gen fighter...

Oh yea... the 5th gen fighter is called the MiG35 you can read about it here

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/row/mfi.htm

[RedRed]

Cool link,

[Chrono_Wanderer]

Speaking of loos, IMO Su27 to Su35 (similar airframe) looks the best!

Sukhoi is pretty good these days...









It's nose is awesome!
other than that...

French RAFALE looks cool IMO







edit: Although the F-35B JSF's STOVL looks promising for the navy... its just ugly imo... (Sorry Americans)

[Nowhere]

Chrono_Wanderer, of course they look the best, you think why we have those:


ok, ok, those are not sukhoi's - but in practice, what's the difference anyway? Most people can't distinguish them

[dZeus]

I agree on Sukhoi making very interesting designs....

look at this one:

[Dr Mordrid]

Forward swept wings were first tried in 1943 by Germany with the Ju-287 bomber;

http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/ju287.html

then in the mid 1980's by NASA with the Grumman X-29;



which this Sukhoi looks to be a 95% steal of, save for smoothening out of the lines and the F-15 Strike Eagle-ish tail.

In terms of what areodynamic advantage there is to a forward swept wing: it doesn't matter....

cos(-L) = cos(L)

There are also secondary compressibility effects having to do with
taper that favor forward swept wings.

OTOH there is the matter of structural integrity. Here the forward swept wing is subjected to much higher structural stresses, which tend to overwhelm any minor aerodynamic advantages you get.

Dr. Mordrid

[dZeus]

You could argue that the F117 looks nearly identical to German WW2 prototype plane.... what's the point of who was first?

What matters is that Sukhoi succeeded where others failed: it has overcome the problems that plagued the X-29 and similar forward swept wings by using a special polymere (sp?) alloy which makes it being able to withstand very high forces, well over what the plane needs to withstand in operation.

Edit: typo

[Dr Mordrid]

X-15 didn't have a forward swept wing. It had a straight wing derived from the 1952 Bell X-3 Stiletto and was used again in 1958 on the Lockheed F-104 Starfighter interceptor.

As for Suhkoi doing something others couldn't or wouldn't do; did you ever wonder if it was worth doing?

In terms of aerodynamics it's a wash with a rearward swept wing, so that's no reason to do it.

With the greatly increased stress on the airframe would you want to pull 9 g's in it?

Dr. Mordrid

[Nowhere]

oh, Dr Mordrid, and the tale of Sukhoi prototype doesn't look "F-15 Strike Eagle-ish" to me. I think it looks "Su27-ish" rather...(the whole plane looks basically like redesign of Su27...).
What I mean...it's better not to assume automatically that russian designs are steal offs of western ones...

edit: besides let's not forgot it's just a prototype...if it was ever in production, then we would have something to discuss a bit...but in this case - I don't think so really...

[Dr Mordrid]

Why not when they are? It's using a dual pylon tail with horizontal control flukes; very much like the F-15 Strike Eagle and the F-22 Raptor. They may not be made on the same dies, but they are very much of the same stripe.

Dr. Mordrid

[Nowhere]

But that doesn't mean they (su27s) are steal offs!

[Greebe]

tsk tsk Doc

The forward swept wing design has many advantages over the standard wing design. While inherently unstable the two main points that make it better are reduced drag for a given surface area and greater lift for a given area over the norm.

Additionally this wing also has the advantage of greater pitch moment, thus greater manueverability and instead of creating the lifting point at the wing tips it's at the wing root.

It's main disadvantage is a lower roll rate due to the lack of control surfaces near the wing tips because this would place them in front of the center of pressure. This would greatly increase the shearing forces ie if it did have control surfaces on the outer panels the wing would rip itself apart.

Suhkoi should be praised for their accomplishment not jeered at due to it's similarity to the X-29. It's not like the US hasn't copied Russian designs before

BTW this aircraft design I've been following since it's inception and is one of the designs of an R/C aircraft I've contemplated building.

[Chrono_Wanderer]

hmm... Su27 looks like F15? That's a new one (no offend or anything)





However, F-15s are great planes. Almost perfect record!

The Su27's body is very slim vs. the F15. Air intake... well... other than the belly and the sides, where else are they going to put it

Edit: Was the Su27 was the counterpart to the F15?