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  • #16
    Kooldino;

    You have to understand my perspective as a former figure 8, rally and SCCA racer

    That said most autos come with engines designed for street use with an output of <200 BHP. Boost that to 300-400+ BHP and it's VERY likely the suspension, brakes and drive train will fail in relatively short order. It don't take 1000 BHP.

    The corners are also very important because 99% of road suspensions and brakes are NOT capable of the handling and braking requirements of a performance car. The suspensions will squat & roll when loaded causing control problems and stock brakes will fry under heavy-duty use. Some (as in very few) performance models will be OK. The rest of the cars out there; no way in hell are they safe under performance conditions.

    As far as magna-fluxing the block & heads go; that's basic hot rodding 101 in these parts, not just for race car design. This is one reason why we have a Ramchargers or some other performance oriented shop about every 2 miles around here, but then I live near Detroit....home of The Woodward Ave. Dream Cruise



    A LOT of blocks & heads come off the line with subtle defects that pass quality control and won't affect road performance but will cause failure under the high outputs found in performance builds. Much like with CPU's some can handle "overclocking" while others will do a meltdown.

    If you're really building for N20, turbos or other high power generating addons you'll have the engine apart anyhow, so why not get it and the heads checked? It only costs ~$250 +/- and is worth it if you find out your part isn't up to the much more expensive components you propose hanging off it. I've seen $1000+ addons ruined when a head came apart for lack of it being properly prepared.

    Uppance: if you *really* want to go on the cheap you build the rest of the car to handle the new power instead of having to replace things every month.

    Dr. Mordrid
    Last edited by Dr Mordrid; 30 May 2003, 07:50.
    Dr. Mordrid
    ----------------------------
    An elephant is a mouse built to government specifications.

    I carry a gun because I can't throw a rock 1,250 fps

    Comment


    • #17
      One thing we've seem to forgot here always upgrade your brakes as well otherwise you'll pump the gas and then oops I can't stop.


      quote:
      --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

      3. Before modding anything that produces horsepower get the engine block & heads ready; as in magna-fluxing for defects, getting the block, heads, exhaust ports & valve train worked on by someone who knows what the f**k they're doing and by all means consider a stronger & better timed crank, cams and oil delivery system.

      --------------------------------------------------------------------------------



      Are you kidding me? I mean, I can understand if you're looking for 1,000hp, but almost no one goes to the extremes that you're listing. They'd be great to do, but there'd be a lot of $ and downtime involved. Many cars can almost double HP on stock internals.

      Dr M is quite right there that was the same advice I got when I upgraded my car.

      Cooling depends on the car the one I modded was at it's limit anyway so I got a special one made. Even then on days when temperatures in the shade got to 90F I still needed a manual overide otherwise I got vapour lock if I was stood in a jam for any period of time. I reckon if I modded my clio to kick out an extra 20 bhp more it would also need a larger radiator. Oil cooler I didn't bother but the cylinder head needed some work and the valve springs all needed upgrading as did the rocker shaft. Thats was only for a 22 BHP increase. At lot depends on the engine though.
      Chief Lemon Buyer no more Linux sucks but not as much
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      • #18
        True, alot of what Dr. M said is unnecesasry, however I come from the school that says if your going to do it, do it right.

        I could have bolted on a simple 200hp Nos kit on my car, or slapped on a Turbo, or supercharger to amount to the same,
        however the life expectancy of the motor would be questionable.
        I have seen ppl bolt on a turbo or blower and promptly blow head gaskets within a week.
        I did have the advantage of starting with a rather robust V8 to begin with, but what the hey,
        I've got the motor apart anyway, it's not that much effort to get the block magnafluxed, align bored,
        and new cam bearings installed. (no down time here, I built a separate motor)


        As for many of the other mods: Unless you are going to race it (at the track, NOT ON THE STREET) you wont need to go too extreme for suspension/braking. Traffic laws should keep you at reasonable operating speeds.
        Yeah, well I'm gonna build my own lunar space lander! With blackjack aaaaannd Hookers! Actually, forget the space lander, and the blackjack. Ahhhh forget the whole thing!

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Dr Mordrid
          Kooldino;

          You have to understand my perspective as a former figure 8, rally and SCCA racer
          Oooh, rally+SCCA=fun!

          That said most autos come with engines designed for street use with an output of <200 BHP. Boost that to 300-400+ BHP and it's VERY likely the suspension, brakes and drive train will fail in relatively short order. It don't take 1000 BHP.
          I can't totally agree w/ your statement, but it is true in a lot of cases. There are a few cars out that are really known to be able to handle a few hundred extra HP without doing anything nuts to them to withstand the power.

          But again, that wasn't my original point. My point was that WyWy is obviously a novice, and would likely be interested in adding 10-20% more power to his car, not make it an all out racing machine.

          The corners are also very important because 99% of road suspensions and brakes are NOT capable of the handling and braking requirements of a performance car. The suspensions will squat & roll when loaded causing control problems and stock brakes will fry under heavy-duty use. Some (as in very few) performance models will be OK. The rest of the cars out there; no way in hell are they safe under performance conditions.
          Again, we're probably talking about a dozen or two extra HP, not an all out beast. If you have a typical 130hp car and mod it to 150hp, that should easily be within the limits of the stock breaks and suspension. Although personally I'd upgrade the suspension for maximum fun factor. I just thought that a lot of the mods you listed we're just not feasable/worth it for a guy looking for just a little extra "go".

          As far as magna-fluxing the block & heads go; that's basic hot rodding 101 in these parts, not just for race car design. This is one reason why we have a Ramchargers or some other performance oriented shop about every 2 miles around here, but then I live near Detroit....home of The Woodward Ave. Dream Cruise
          Perhaps magna-fluxing your internals is popular 'round your parts (or probably more likely popular with the type of car you're into tuning?), but I know plenty of guys into tuning their cars (keep in mind these are all modern cars...again, I don't know what you tune), but there are tons of guys making good amounts of power without ever touching their internals. And if you really require sick power, pull the block apart, drop in some forged internals, and you'll have the potential to make more power than almost anyone needs on the street. But at that point, you're pretty extreme and should definitely be beefing up your tranny/axles, etc.

          A LOT of blocks & heads come off the line with subtle defects that pass quality control and won't affect road performance but will cause failure under the high outputs found in performance builds. Much like with CPU's some can handle "overclocking" while others will do a meltdown.
          Yeah, not all engines are created equally, but even a BAD engine could easily handle another 10-20% extra power without going haywire. I'd even go as far as saying that almost all engines in halfway decent cars today could handle a 50% increase in power without too much effort. But if you're into tuning cars, chances are you'll pick a car with an engine that could handle much more.

          If you're really building for N20, turbos or other high power generating addons you'll have the engine apart anyhow, so why not get it and the heads checked? It only costs ~$250 +/- and is worth it if you find out your part isn't up to the much more expensive components you propose hanging off it. I've seen $1000+ addons ruined when a head came apart for lack of it being properly prepared.
          I'm not a N20 guy, but you can add a turbo onto a lot of stock blocks and never have the engine apart...while still adding a good amount of power. I mean yeah, if you're the first guy to boost your type of engine, I could see a reason to pull the block apart to try to estimate what it could handle. But if thousands have tuned your type of car/engine before you (such as with DSMs, Z28s, or WRXs for example) and there is consistent data on how much power you can safely run on the thing, then I don't see the need to pull the block apart. And again, you're not gonna be modding the internals of an engine if you're turboing it unless the engine is known to be weak, OR you're really trying to make some handsome dyno charts. :-)

          Uppance: if you *really* want to go on the cheap you build the rest of the car to handle the new power instead of having to replace things every month.
          I agree, don't go cheap. But the things you suggested in your original post would cost thousands and thousands to do...and that would be a big waste of $ just so you can safely run another 30HP.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by The PIT
            One thing we've seem to forgot here always upgrade your brakes as well otherwise you'll pump the gas and then oops I can't stop.


            quote:
            --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

            3. Before modding anything that produces horsepower get the engine block & heads ready; as in magna-fluxing for defects, getting the block, heads, exhaust ports & valve train worked on by someone who knows what the f**k they're doing and by all means consider a stronger & better timed crank, cams and oil delivery system.

            --------------------------------------------------------------------------------



            Are you kidding me? I mean, I can understand if you're looking for 1,000hp, but almost no one goes to the extremes that you're listing. They'd be great to do, but there'd be a lot of $ and downtime involved. Many cars can almost double HP on stock internals.

            Dr M is quite right there that was the same advice I got when I upgraded my car.

            Cooling depends on the car the one I modded was at it's limit anyway so I got a special one made. Even then on days when temperatures in the shade got to 90F I still needed a manual overide otherwise I got vapour lock if I was stood in a jam for any period of time. I reckon if I modded my clio to kick out an extra 20 bhp more it would also need a larger radiator. Oil cooler I didn't bother but the cylinder head needed some work and the valve springs all needed upgrading as did the rocker shaft. Thats was only for a 22 BHP increase. At lot depends on the engine though.
            I don't know what a Clio is or when it was made, but you can add 22BHP to about any new car and get away with it safely. Again, his mods list isnt' a bad one, but it's an expensive list for someone who's just looking for a tad extra punch. Here, I'll even break it down for ya...

            [/B][/QUOTE]
            Before modding anything that produces horsepower get the engine block & heads ready; as in magna-fluxing for defects,
            [/B][/QUOTE]

            Again, I don't know of anyone who has had this done, and I know a lot of guys (with modern cars, mind you), that are far beyond stock HP.

            getting the block, heads, exhaust ports & valve train worked on
            getting all of that "worked on" (depending on what you're doing to it) could easily run a $1-$2K....

            by someone who knows what the f**k they're doing and by all means consider a stronger & better timed crank, cams and oil delivery system.
            a stronger crank is something reserved for guys breaking 500hp, in general.

            Cams are a good mod, and are more of a power adder mod than a safety mod.

            I can't recall any street car tuners I know having messed w/ their "oil delivery system", so this is another mod that I'll have to chalk up to "race track, extreme performance".

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by gt40
              True, alot of what Dr. M said is unnecesasry, however I come from the school that says if your going to do it, do it right.
              Yup, doing it right is fine. Just keep it feasable...

              I could have bolted on a simple 200hp Nos kit on my car, or slapped on a Turbo, or supercharger to amount to the same,
              however the life expectancy of the motor would be questionable.
              Again, I'm not a N20 guy, so I won't comment on that persey...

              but as far as forced induction goes...if you add one to your car, don't go overboard with the psi, and most importantly TUNE AND MANAGE IT CORRECTLY, then your engine should last 90% as long as it would with stock power (according to Corky Bell).

              I have seen ppl bolt on a turbo or blower and promptly blow head gaskets within a week.
              Probably because of too much PSI. It's all about knowing your limits (by people who experimented w/ your car before you), and managing your engine.

              I did have the advantage of starting with a rather robust V8 to begin with, but what the hey,
              I've got the motor apart anyway, it's not that much effort to get the block magnafluxed, align bored,
              and new cam bearings installed. (no down time here, I built a separate motor)
              Ok, no down time, but $$ for the seperate motor. Working on internals and having the car on blocks for a few weeks just isn't worth it to your average guy looking for a few extra HP.

              As for many of the other mods: Unless you are going to race it (at the track, NOT ON THE STREET) you wont need to go too extreme for suspension/braking. Traffic laws should keep you at reasonable operating speeds.
              Yup.

              Comment


              • #22
                I think WyWyWyWy has just wandered into an F5 funnel of money and time suckage!

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by KvHagedorn
                  I think WyWyWyWy has just wandered into an F5 funnel of money and time suckage!
                  LOL.
                  And to think all this time all the poor fellow wanted was some direction to web resources.
                  Yeah, well I'm gonna build my own lunar space lander! With blackjack aaaaannd Hookers! Actually, forget the space lander, and the blackjack. Ahhhh forget the whole thing!

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    I remember this guy in the neighborhood bolted a turbo, adjustable waste gate, N20 rig and custom exhaust onto his Civic SI.

                    The shop told him to limit the boost to 6-8 lbs when using N20 and 10 lbs without, but the guy read in some rag that 12-14 would be fine with a stock engine as long as he kept off the N20.

                    Right....

                    One day he's driving around with the boost set to 12 and forgets his "limitations". During a redlight rumble he stupidly hits the N20 just as the turbos boost goes over the limit.

                    BANG!!

                    He not only had to replace the engine parts but the hood because of this huge dent; which it got when the Civic's head tried to reach escape velocity

                    Dr. Mordrid
                    Last edited by Dr Mordrid; 30 May 2003, 11:05.
                    Dr. Mordrid
                    ----------------------------
                    An elephant is a mouse built to government specifications.

                    I carry a gun because I can't throw a rock 1,250 fps

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Dr Mordrid
                      I remember this guy in the neighborhood bolted a turbo, adjustable waste gate, N20 rig and custom exhaust onto his Civic SI.

                      The shop told him to limit the boost to 6-8 lbs when using N20 and 10 lbs without, but the guy read in some rag that 12-14 would be fine with a stock engine as long as he kept off the N20. Right....

                      One day he's driving around with the boost set to 12 and forgets his "limitations". During a redlight rumble he stupidly hits the N20 just as the turbos boost goes over the limit.

                      BANG!!

                      He not only had to replace the engine parts but the hood because of this huge dent; which it got when the Civic's head tried to reach escape velocity

                      Dr. Mordrid
                      LOL, well, it's his own dumb fault. He knew his limits, but didn't stay within them. That's what happens! But without the N20 and with the exhauast and 12psi, I bet that car made sick power on the stock engine!

                      What turbo did he run anyway? I'm guessing a T3/T4?

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        As KvHagedorn would say
                        "This sort of discussion is fascinating. "
                        P4 Northwood 1.8GHz@2.7GHz 1.65V Albatron PX845PEV Pro
                        Running two Dell 2005FPW 20" Widescreen LCD
                        And of course, Matrox Parhelia | My Matrox histroy: Mill-I, Mill-II, Mystique, G400, Parhelia

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                        • #27
                          LOL@WyWyWyWy...

                          So how are the car mods coming along?

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Thanks for all the advice.
                            I ordered some (beginner) Haynes books, bought some magazine, read some random personal websites.
                            And most importantly, I rang a few car sellers and discussed with my gf, I'm ready to buy a car now.

                            And you know what, I'm copy-and-pasting this discussion to notepad so that I can archive this
                            P4 Northwood 1.8GHz@2.7GHz 1.65V Albatron PX845PEV Pro
                            Running two Dell 2005FPW 20" Widescreen LCD
                            And of course, Matrox Parhelia | My Matrox histroy: Mill-I, Mill-II, Mystique, G400, Parhelia

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Kooldino
                              LOL, well, it's his own dumb fault. He knew his limits, but didn't stay within them. That's what happens! But without the N20 and with the exhauast and 12psi, I bet that car made sick power on the stock engine!

                              What turbo did he run anyway? I'm guessing a T3/T4?
                              It was pretty quick and sounded nice to boot. Not sure what turbo he used, but a Turbonetics sounds familiar.

                              Dr. Mordrid
                              Last edited by Dr Mordrid; 30 May 2003, 11:16.
                              Dr. Mordrid
                              ----------------------------
                              An elephant is a mouse built to government specifications.

                              I carry a gun because I can't throw a rock 1,250 fps

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                @ Mordid: Sweet!

                                @ WyWyWyWy: So what'cha buying?

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