Bowling for Columbine - revisited

[Wombat]

Re: Re: Re: Are you free?

Originally posted by ZokesPro
I think he's trying ot show that our society (canadian as well as american) is ina decline and it's not getting better.

If it's so true, then why can't he get his point across without lying? If he has to sink to this level of fraud, then he's just accelerating this supposed decline.

[ZokesPro]

It's like talking to brick walls. I'm done, I said what needed to be said.

Edit: It's not about Micheal Moore and what he has to say, it's about our society, but obviously you guys are too "into" it to EVEN see what's really going on. Micheal Moore isn't the one who is accelerating the so called decline...

[Taz-Matt]

Yes! There's no point of even saying that we do not think the same as somebody else in a free country without being repulsed!

I'm done with that issue too!
(And by the way, I didn't toutch any drugs and I did not drink any alcohol in the last 5 years JammRock. I was not trying to harm anyone so why try to harm me because I think differently, am I free or what? I only wanted to discuss it, but now, I think I'll just move on...)

[ZokesPro]

Originally posted by Gurm
No. He lies and slanders. Whether he does this to "make a point" is irrelevant. His "point" is ALSO wrong. He is attempting to "get you to think", but only in the direction he wants, in support of HIS AGENDA.

- Gurm

I have only recently heard of Micheal Moore, yet what HE talks about has been said for ages, only difference is that HE has the guts to show it ina movie. But it's NOT about "Bowling for Columbine". You guys are so blind to it all... m'eh, what's the use...

[Wombat]

Originally posted by ZokesPro
I have only recently heard of Micheal Moore, yet what HE talks about has been said for ages, only difference is that HE has the guts to show it ina movie. But it's NOT about "Bowling for Columbine". You guys are so blind to it all... m'eh, what's the use...

Zokes, it's not news. It's just perception. The other day a friend of mine read me a newspaper article bemoaning the decline of values, employment, loyalty in America. The article was from a 150-year old newspaper.

Hell, even the Greeks were talking about an imminent downfall of society, over 2000 years ago.

The world is old, humanity is old, you are nothing more than an observer of a sliver of it all. You're entirety of observatation is just a smidgen of our civilization. The sky is not falling, chill out.

[ZokesPro]

Originally posted by Wombat
Zokes, it's not news. It's just perception. The other day a friend of mine read me a newspaper article bemoaning the decline of values, employment, loyalty in America. The article was from a 150-year old newspaper.

Hell, even the Greeks were talking about an imminent downfall of society, over 2000 years ago.

The world is old, humanity is old, you are nothing more than an observer of a sliver of it all. You're entirety of observatation is just a smidgen of our civilization. The sky is not falling, chill out.

I understand. It's just so frustrating and depressing, seems like there's nothing we can do to make this damn place any better.

[Taz-Matt]

Now that's interesting Wombat. I thought I would not post again in here but it seems it is getting a bit more interesting now. Thanks to you!

Yes! It is right that it has been like that for a long time and it is also right that we only are observers. The only thing I want to say is that if we were the ones being bombed every once in a while, maybe we wouldn't think the same way. Maybe we'd want to change something. Maybe we would try to be more than observers. If Moore got one good thing into my head, it was that (to be a little Moore empathic). But I don't believe anything in any movie until I know it's true. That's why I still analyze what he's showing us and try to talk about it and that's also why I found your comment very interesting Wombat.

- Taz-Matt

[Wombat]

Oh, I'm not arguing for inaction. Far from it. However, I do not believe that the ends justify the means, whether it's George W. Bush or Michael Moore. Act with integrity if you're going to act.

[Jammrock]

Then how come you don't see MORE of this?? They had a reason, and although we'll never know what it is, they HAD a reason.

There is a lot of it. 2-3 school shootings on the news each. Pearl Jam's Jeremy is about a kid who shoots himself in school. And that's just what we hear about. Inner Cities have metal detectors at every door to keep guns and knives out of the school.

I have never said that moral values of society aren't declining. Moral degradation is common in any aging society, and the more power the nation has, the quicker the degradation. It happened to Britan (through forced subjugation of their colonies), China (drug use, loss of moral values), Spain, Portugal, Charlemain's (sp?) empire, Mongolia, Rome, Greece, Egypt, Babylon ... et cetera.

Not that the US is not in anyway as 'great' as those classical societies. The US is nothing compared to those old empires. It's just like what the old saying says, "power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely." In the end, human ambition and greed is the great empire and nation killer.

Now, back to the original topic at hand. Michael Moore is nothing more than a liberal sensationalist. Everything he has ever done beyond his original Flint, Michigan factory closure documentary has been nothing but him blowing his own smoke. He uses simple yellow journalize and mud slinging to rile people up to make enough cash to keep his double wide fridge stocked.

Jammrock

[Gurm]

Amen, Jammrock.

And Zokes - while I _do_ appreciate that you have some feelings of frustration over the world situation, and especially the national situation...

Please don't by into what every sensationalist fraud has to say simply because he pays lip service to what you want to hear.

It's like the Christians (no, I'm not about to religion-bash here) I grew up with.

These people, who were otherwise intelligent and well meaning, seeking religious truth... were absurdly easy to manipulate.

For reasons that are STILL unclear to me, anyone who showed up and paid lip service to their beliefs gained INSTANT credibility.

The campaign against "Dungeons and Dragons" comes to mind. A couple of people somewhere claimed that D&D was an occult handbook. Thousands of copies were burnt by Christians ACROSS THE NATION. Sermons were delivered, kids were punished for playing the game... and not a single one of these people ever OPENED THE DAMN GAMN BOOK to SEE if it was really occult. Here's a hint - it wasn't. Nothing to see in there. Just some elves and dwarves, in a cheap ripoff of Lord of the Rings, saving the world from evil.

A couple years ago, we had Thanksgiving with my aunt and uncle. He is a protestant minister. We have a yearly tradition of those of us who have energy left after the meal (it gets fewer and fewer each year) traipsing off to a movie... and we mentioned the first Harry Potter film.

My uncle said, with ALL seriousness, "isn't it true that J.K. Rowling used actual satanic incantations in that book"?

We were flabbergasted. It's a book for 10-year-olds, and the closest that Rowling comes to ANY incantation is muddled Latin. So we took them to see the movie (they're pretty open-minded for born-again types) and they were SHOCKED that it could have been so badly misrepresented. But nobody in their entire congregation (or anywhere else, for that matter) had BOTHERED to check the book and SEE if it was the truth or not.

Sadly, this is an intellectual epidemic in protestant Christian circles. And it reminds me a lot of Moore. He says the right things on the surface - he makes a lot of points that the Liberals and disenfranchised have been trying to make for years, and he tows their party line.

The problem is that you can't make valid points by lying.

I can say "this country is going to hell in a handbasket! Kids are bringing guns to school! And look, they're getting them from the KKK! And the KKK is being funded by George W. Bush!"

Now, we ALL dislike the KKK. We ALL dislike kids having guns in school, and the liberals blame the conservative opposition to gun control. I've just tied together three UNRELATED elements. Now imagine that I had imagery specifically engineered to "show the connection" between those things. There isn't any such connection, but making up a video montage isn't hard.

See? I just lied as well as Moore... which is to say poorly. I made a "valid point", which is to say not valid at all.

- Gurm

[ZokesPro]

When i saw Micheal Moore's so called "documentary" I didn't believe it all. It would be foolish to take everything he says in that movie as fact. And yes, I agree, it's easy to deceive and to be decieved when there are so many pictures on the tele. (reminds me of my anti-tv thread)

What his movie told me mainly is that there's a problem with our society and the way it works and that there's not much being done to help. (especially onthe corporate side) Aside form that, it's entertainement. But he does have so good facts in his movie and he does make a lot of very sneaky and deceiving associations which are his own thoughts on things, I did see that. And some of his deceptions do make sense, but I keep an open mind and I don't take what i see for fact, there's always that part of me that keeps saying: "It's a movie, he wants to make money and he'll do it by any means possible". I think the expression is "take it with a grain of salt"?

So yeah, don't worry, I'm not that gullible.

[Kooldino]

Originally posted by Gurm
No. He lies and slanders. Whether he does this to "make a point" is irrelevant. His "point" is ALSO wrong. He is attempting to "get you to think", but only in the direction he wants, in support of HIS AGENDA.

- Gurm

Exactly.

[Kooldino]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Are you free?

Originally posted by Wombat
If it's so true, then why can't he get his point across without lying? If he has to sink to this level of fraud, then he's just accelerating this supposed decline.

Amen, brother.

[Kooldino]

Originally posted by Gurm
Amen, Jammrock.

And Zokes - while I _do_ appreciate that you have some feelings of frustration over the world situation, and especially the national situation...

Please don't by into what every sensationalist fraud has to say simply because he pays lip service to what you want to hear.

It's like the Christians (no, I'm not about to religion-bash here) I grew up with.

These people, who were otherwise intelligent and well meaning, seeking religious truth... were absurdly easy to manipulate.

For reasons that are STILL unclear to me, anyone who showed up and paid lip service to their beliefs gained INSTANT credibility.

The campaign against "Dungeons and Dragons" comes to mind. A couple of people somewhere claimed that D&D was an occult handbook. Thousands of copies were burnt by Christians ACROSS THE NATION. Sermons were delivered, kids were punished for playing the game... and not a single one of these people ever OPENED THE DAMN GAMN BOOK to SEE if it was really occult. Here's a hint - it wasn't. Nothing to see in there. Just some elves and dwarves, in a cheap ripoff of Lord of the Rings, saving the world from evil.

A couple years ago, we had Thanksgiving with my aunt and uncle. He is a protestant minister. We have a yearly tradition of those of us who have energy left after the meal (it gets fewer and fewer each year) traipsing off to a movie... and we mentioned the first Harry Potter film.

My uncle said, with ALL seriousness, "isn't it true that J.K. Rowling used actual satanic incantations in that book"?

We were flabbergasted. It's a book for 10-year-olds, and the closest that Rowling comes to ANY incantation is muddled Latin. So we took them to see the movie (they're pretty open-minded for born-again types) and they were SHOCKED that it could have been so badly misrepresented. But nobody in their entire congregation (or anywhere else, for that matter) had BOTHERED to check the book and SEE if it was the truth or not.

Sadly, this is an intellectual epidemic in protestant Christian circles. And it reminds me a lot of Moore. He says the right things on the surface - he makes a lot of points that the Liberals and disenfranchised have been trying to make for years, and he tows their party line.

The problem is that you can't make valid points by lying.

I can say "this country is going to hell in a handbasket! Kids are bringing guns to school! And look, they're getting them from the KKK! And the KKK is being funded by George W. Bush!"

Now, we ALL dislike the KKK. We ALL dislike kids having guns in school, and the liberals blame the conservative opposition to gun control. I've just tied together three UNRELATED elements. Now imagine that I had imagery specifically engineered to "show the connection" between those things. There isn't any such connection, but making up a video montage isn't hard.

See? I just lied as well as Moore... which is to say poorly. I made a "valid point", which is to say not valid at all.

- Gurm

Damn good points, Gurm.

[Gurm]

Thanks.

And Zokes - the fact that YOU got that out of the movie doesn't mean that most people did.

Most people assumed that it was what it purported to be - a DOCUMENTARY. People go into documentaries expecting the truth, or at least a version thereof.

- Gurm