Bowling for Columbine - revisited

[Taz-Matt]

Originally posted by Gurm
If only 10% of what someone tells you are lies, you STILL have to be VERY CAREFUL when listening to them.

Since Moore clearly falls into the 50% or greater category...

I just want to go back to your "Shiela" Gurm. When you told us about you as Shiela, you made "her" tell 100% lies to explain your point, and I gotta admit that was an excellent example. But when I added the two guns in "her" hands and made "her" say "I'm gonna shoot you all", still, there was about 75% lies in "her" sentence but I'm sure anyone would've listened to "her" in that situation...

Originally posted by Gurm
Are you following? It doesn't matter that Heston "said all those things". What matters is that he didn't say them in the order Moore says he said them in, or when Moore claims he said them.

So you basically say is that even if Heston would've said, "we're gonna shoot plenty of people because they are on our property" for example. But Michael Moore would put that in a movie but not in the same order that Heston told it, you would still reject Moore and not Heston?

Matt.

[TransformX]

What a woman says:
This place is a mess! C'mon,you and i need to clean up, your stuff is lying on the floor and you'll have no clothes to wear, if we don't do laundry right now!

What a Man Hears:

blah,blah,blah,blah,C'MON
blah,blah,blah,blah,YOU AND I
blah,blah,blah,blah,ON THE FLOOR
blah,blah,blah,blah,NO CLOTHES
blah,blah,blah,blah,RIGHT NOW!

[ZokesPro]

@TransformX: LOL

[Gurm]

Originally posted by Taz-Matt
I just want to go back to your "Shiela" Gurm. When you told us about you as Shiela, you made "her" tell 100% lies to explain your point, and I gotta admit that was an excellent example. But when I added the two guns in "her" hands and made "her" say "I'm gonna shoot you all", still, there was about 75% lies in "her" sentence but I'm sure anyone would've listened to "her" in that situation...

Sure. Now take away the guns, and INSTEAD have me tell you some absolute truths of the universe.

"Hi, my name is Shiela, I'm a 60 year old woman, I've just finished menopause, and wearing a hat will make you happier!"

Does it really matter if it's true that wearing a hat makes you happier? Not really, since you're pretty sure that I'm a pathological liar.

So you basically say is that even if Heston would've said, "we're gonna shoot plenty of people because they are on our property" for example. But Michael Moore would put that in a movie but not in the same order that Heston told it, you would still reject Moore and not Heston?

Yup. Wanna know why? Because in much of this country, you CAN shoot to protect your property, but in ALL of this country, you CANNOT slander others.

How about if Moore changed it (not so unlikely) to:

"We shoot people. We shoot people PLENTY. We shoot people... because."

That's an admission of a felony! Multiple felonies! Not true, not what Heston said, but admission of a felony ANYWAY. It's also slander, which is itself a felony last time I checked.

- Gurm

[KvHagedorn]

Originally posted by Novdid
Were the hell did you people learn to reply like this???

I'm very glad Americans can't vote over here...

Likewise.

Being so isolated from external threats to your lives and culture for so long, many Swedes have apparently become quite utterly naive.. no wonder you elected some African girl as Miss Sweden. In your insular PC thinking, this is a good thing, but it only shows your lack of self-worth and the weakness of your sense of survival to the world, and your ripeness for being taken advantage of. You perceive the enemy where he is not, and turn your back to the real one, as he mounts and defiles you.. but then again, some types seem to enjoy this treatment.

[Taz-Matt]

This is, I think, my last post in here, at least for Gurm, because from what you answered me, I know that you will never look further than the surface. You said it yourself by answering my questions so don't deny this one. And since it is EXACTLY the problem, it won't be of any use to post again in the BFC thread, not even to look back at what you answered to this message Gurm.

I will do just like you, even if there's important truth in what you say from now on, I will ignore it since you can't look into the problem. You are so IN the system that you won't even admit the thruth (even if there are lies and slander) behind this movie (and our society in general). So since it's useless to talk to somebody who never looks futher than the surface, it's useless to point out the bigger problems inside.

What I find bizzare from all your replies Gurm is that most of what you say in other threads is very intelligent and you seem to be very intelligent too, but you don't seem to be able to break the barrier, to open your mind, to see further than Moore. All I've heard from you is (Lying, Slander, Decieving, Michael Moore, BFC). Do you ever go further than this. Do you ever get out of your house? I really didn't want to say this but I thought it was the only thing I could say to your replies. I don't know you and I'd like to know why you think like that but all you give me as an answer is he's a liar, he's a this, he's a that while I'm trying to find out dozens of other sources than Moore and BFC and it's annoying. Do you think that from everyone that doesn't think like you? I want to know but it seems impossible to break the egg and let you out so, I'll use your way of thinking on this one Gurm : why even bother going further.

BTW : I really wanted this discussion to go further but it seems like everytime somebody tries to push it further, somebody answers a thing that takes us to the start again... Like a big revolutionary engine that never starts. So I'm done in here, see you around some other threads.

Matt.

[Gurm]

What other answer do you want?

I'm equally frustrated that you seem to be hell-bent on "digging" for meaning from what is supposed to be a DOCUMENTARY.

I understand that there are problems in this country. There are problems in EVERY country.

I find it astonishing that because I refuse to think the same way that you think, you assume that I'm being shallow or "refusing to look beneath the surface".

I disagree with virtually every "deeper meaning" that you could possibly put forward except the most basic.

Are there problems in the USA? Yes.

Are those problems caused by guns? No.

Are those problems caused by the NRA? No.

Are those problems caused by a basic breakdwon in society, and a lack of willingness to take personal responsibility for our lives and our children? Yes.

Who is to blame for Columbine? In a small part, society as a whole. In a large part, the parents of the kids who did the shooting. Go look in your kid's room. If there are bombs in there, maybe you need a talk, hmm? The kids who did the killing - their rooms were FULL of bomb-making paraphernalia. There's no such thing as "full privacy" for a teenager. I'm sorry. The parents didn't do their DAMN JOBS.

The fact that BFC utterly overlooks this and chooses instead to focus on the LIBERAL assumption that GUNS CAUSE CRIME... is absurd.

What answers do you want from me?

Do you want me to say "Yes, Taz-man. I've seen the light, and there IS a deeper meaning and I'm sorry I focused on Moore's slanderous disregard for the truth?"

Not going to happen.

Just like you're never going to understand (apparently) that I can't take anyone seriously who lies for a living.

- Gurm

[Gurm]

And as a further note, how stupid does it make YOU look to say:

"You know Gurm, you seem like a really intelligent person, but because you disagree with my opinion, I have decided that you're stupid."

- Gurm

[Taz-Matt]

Originally posted by Gurm
And as a further note, how stupid does it make YOU look to say:

"You know Gurm, you seem like a really intelligent person, but because you disagree with my opinion, I have decided that you're stupid."

- Gurm

First, I never said you were stupid, now YOU lied and YOU slandered on what I've said to make me look bad. This is YOUR interpretation. Sorry if I hurt you in any way.

Originally posted by Gurm
Are there problems in the USA? Yes.
Are those problems caused by guns? No.
Are those problems caused by the NRA? No.

Never said in the USA only, didn't I say America? Which includes MY country? Did I ever say it's because of the guns? No! Did I say it's because of the NRA? No! They sure didn't help a couple of times but I have no reason to blame it on them! Do I agree with Moore at 100%? No! Never said that! Even there, did Moore say that guns cause crime in BFC? No! He even had arguments that prooved this theory wrong himself and told them in the movie. The movie ends and this question is still unanswered! Did you watch the movie?

Originally posted by Gurm
Do you want me to say "Yes, Taz-man. I've seen the light, and there IS a deeper meaning and I'm sorry I focused on Moore's slanderous disregard for the truth?"

BTW, it's Taz-Matt, not Taz-Man. And no, I didn't want you to conform to my way of thinking. I was waiting for the moment you tell me WHY you think like that, and now you did. But why did you waited until the 66th post to tell me that, if you would've told me from the start : "I don't believe he's right, I do believe that those problems are caused by a basic breakdwon in society, and a lack of willingness to take personal responsibility for our lives and our children." Then I would've said "Now that's a point I agree with you on, and I can understand why you don't bother about BFC since something else is bothering you even more than this movie. Man, that would've ended our "endless" speech.

Originally posted by Gurm
Who is to blame for Columbine? In a small part, society as a whole. In a large part, the parents of the kids who did the shooting. Go look in your kid's room. If there are bombs in there, maybe you need a talk, hmm? The kids who did the killing - their rooms were FULL of bomb-making paraphernalia. There's no such thing as "full privacy" for a teenager. I'm sorry. The parents didn't do their DAMN JOBS.

I'm 100% with you on this one. And I'm happy my parents did their job because I see some other people, the same age as me who are not in a good shape (socially and mentally) as I am. So yes, you are also right on this one!

My only question now is why did you waited so long to tell me that? That is exactly what I was talking about when I said "it seems impossible to break the egg and let you out"! I didn't mean, "You have to conform to my thoughts". That is exactly NOT what I want. I am free to say what I want and I want others to be free too but if you say something, I want to know why, to understand what you say!

BTW : Sorry now if I said something that affected you at any point, that IS not my goal. I just felt it was the only way I could get from you the reason why you thought like this. Now that I know, I do understand you and I won't bother going futher because I understand you (which I couldn't do until the 66th post you wrote). I hope you will do the same and take back the fact that you directly said I was stupid.

[Gurm]

Ahrm.

I was under the impression... ahh, see you're new.

Sorry!

If you had been here a little longer you would have been treated to one of our previous discussions, in which I held forth AT SOME LENGTH about how the big problem in this soceity is that we BLAME other people.



Hey, sorry for the confusion. I assumed we were all on the same playing field. Now that you know what everyone else knows, makes you wonder why Zokes is still so hell-bent on defending BFC, eh?

- Gurm

P.S. We still like Zokes, though. Just so long as he keeps that avatar.

[Taz-Matt]

LOL! Zokes' Avatar! hehe!

I understand the fact that you didn't have any background on me to look at and to make you think about why I'm thinking that way!

Just like I said in previous posts, I know you are intelligent because of your other posts in other threads. I even posted some things saying that I agreed with you in some other threads (like the one on David Blaine). So, now that we understand each other, you know that I'm not looking for trouble and you'll notice that through my future posts too.

For Zokes, I don't think he's "hell-bent" on defending BFC. He didn't even involve himself in the last 15+ posts directly. I just think that he was trying, in his way, to explain the same things as i was. The only thing that kept us going further is the lack of understanding between you, JammRock (and some others) and me, Zokes (and some other). We thought we all understood our points until the 66th post! LOL, what a mess! hehe!

Anyways! Everything's fine on my side!
I'd just shake hands and move on to another thread now! hehe!

BTW : If you don't understand what I write sometimes, just ask me again, french is my primary language so, my english is not perfect... I read, listen to music, tv and work in both french and english at my job thaugh, so that will help! Oh! And I hope he won't be frustrated that I've said that but, I'm Zokes roommate since August, we are friends since high school (about 10 years now so that's why we think alike for some things)!

Matt.

[GNEP]

Welcome aboard then Taz-Matt

[Taz-Matt]

Originally posted by GNEP
Welcome aboard then Taz-Matt

Thank you GNEP!

[ZokesPro]

Originally posted by Gurm
Now that you know what everyone else knows, makes you wonder why Zokes is still so hell-bent on defending BFC, eh?

- Gurm

P.S. We still like Zokes, though. Just so long as he keeps that avatar.

Originally posted by Taz-Matt
For Zokes, I don't think he's "hell-bent" on defending BFC. He didn't even involve himself in the last 15+ posts directly. I just think that he was trying, in his way, to explain the same things as i was. The only thing that kept us going further is the lack of understanding between you, JammRock (and some others) and me, Zokes (and some other). We thought we all understood our points until the 66th post! LOL, what a mess! hehe!

Matt.

Hey look at that! I don't even have to type anything, it's all right there in Taz-Matt's post.

Oh, and just so you hear it from me, I was never defending BFC. (even though our opinions are rather similar, but that is purely coincidental, I did seriously think about all this)

And hey, surprise surprise, my questions STILL go un-answered. *sigh* Why is that? Are those "facts" (and I use the term loosely) real or fake? That's all I want to know, I'm not trying to prove a point or anything, if that's what your worried about.

Edit: changed a 9 for a ( and there was missing an r somewhere.

[Gurm]

I fail to see the relevance of your question. Some of those facts are essentially true. Others are gross oversimplifications, bordering on the absurd. What's your point?

- Gurm